All-Star 2016 Scoring...thoughts???

[uhhlyssa01]

I don't think it's so much a matter of teaching every judge to think the same way as it is a matter of allowing every single one of them to express their thoughts in one language: point code.

Look at this: https://usagym.org/PDFs/T&T/Junior Olympics/TR_errata_12-09.pdf

It's a sheet of tumbling deductions created by the USAG. Every possible mistake is accounted for and assigned a value. No matter what subjective feelings a judge might have about a skill (or a series of skills), they can only use the point code to communicate what they see. They can't (as far as I know) just add or remove points because they feel like doing so.

That's only if we move to a code of points, then sure. I was speaking in terms of our current, more subjective scoring system.

 

[Teacher Mom]

Scoring for CPs team have been consistent until NCA. Raw score on day one was 2 points lower than all other competitions. Then, when all stunts went up and there were 3 additional doubles added on Day 2, with less deductions, raw score went down by .90.
We had the same issue last year (on a different team). Teams that were significantly above us at NCA didn't even make finals at Worlds. I didn't see much difference in any of the routines except cleanliness.
I try not to question it but sometimes scoring makes me stop and think. Then, I just chase those thoughts out of my head because I think there is more to be learned and grow in losing or not getting the placement you thought.

 

[amy1k]

Scoring for CPs team have been consistent until NCA. Raw score on day one was 2 points lower than all other competitions. Then, when all stunts went up and there were 3 additional doubles added on Day 2, with less deductions, raw score went down by .90.
We had the same issue last year (on a different team). Teams that were significantly above us at NCA didn't even make finals at Worlds. I didn't see much difference in any of the routines except cleanliness.
I try not to question it but sometimes scoring makes me stop and think. Then, I just chase those thoughts out of my head because I think there is more to be learned and grow in losing or not getting the placement you thought.

From what I understand (from her coaches), this happened to my daughter's team earlier in the season. Everything was better on day two (including a note referencing the improvement)...but the scores. [emoji23] Whatevs. There's a whole lot I don't understand about cheerleading.

 

[123jump4!]

Scoring for CPs team have been consistent until NCA. Raw score on day one was 2 points lower than all other competitions. Then, when all stunts went up and there were 3 additional doubles added on Day 2, with less deductions, raw score went down by .90.
We had the same issue last year (on a different team). Teams that were significantly above us at NCA didn't even make finals at Worlds. I didn't see much difference in any of the routines except cleanliness.
I try not to question it but sometimes scoring makes me stop and think. Then, I just chase those thoughts out of my head because I think there is more to be learned and grow in losing or not getting the placement you thought.

From what I understand (from her coaches), this happened to my daughter's team earlier in the season. Everything was better on day two (including a note referencing the improvement)...but the scores. [emoji23] Whatevs. There's a whole lot I don't understand about cheerleading.

Sounds crazy. I'm quite glad I've never got to see any scores, it would probably drive me nuts.

I have a question though. We got a group text from team mom at night after day 1 at our local comp saying our difficulty score was good but our technique score needs to improve so our girls need to have straight legs, pointed toes, etc. I was like ok, why are you texting us this. I'm sure the coach will tell the girls. Anyway, so my question is... "the technique score", is that part of what would make the raw score higher if they had better technique?

 

[dmouth11]

Well, I'll just leave this here.

If you don't believe where you're from and what team you're on (brand/gym) doesn't matter, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Stingrays placements at Cheersport vs. NCA (1 week apart, big national in their backyard vs. a few other big gym's backyard).

 

[NJ Coach]

Sounds crazy. I'm quite glad I've never got to see any scores, it would probably drive me nuts.

I have a question though. We got a group text from team mom at night after day 1 at our local comp saying our difficulty score was good but our technique score needs to improve so our girls need to have straight legs, pointed toes, etc. I was like ok, why are you texting us this. I'm sure the coach will tell the girls. Anyway, so my question is... "the technique score", is that part of what would make the raw score higher if they had better technique?

Yes. Basically each section is broken down into 2 categories, Difficulty and Technique. You can have a high difficulty score, with a low technique score. Difficulty (without significant changes to day 2) should be about the same each day. Technique can change and has been the difference maker this season.

 

[gymcatmomx2]

Educated parents make a gym better IMO. I hear complaints about lack of transparency all the time. Why does that only apply to gym owners and coaches? Not seeing scores (that we know you have) only adds to speculation and drama from the parents.

BTW: Our gym does not normally share scoresheets, but it also isn't a heavily guarded secret. if someone wants to understand, coaches are usually willing to discuss it.

While I don't think it is necessary to share the scores with parents after every competition, I do think it would be beneficial to have a parent meeting sometime before competition season, and explain to them how the scoring works. I have had 2 CPs in cheer now for a total of 13 years, and I still do not fully understand how the scoring works or what each judge is actually looking for. Or how some deductions are missed. Or why a higher difficulty level routine lost to a lower level, yet cleaner routine. I honestly think the more informed parents are, the less drama there would be. I understand that each competition is different, it would be nice to at least have an overall understanding. I know parents of other sports, whether it be softball, basketball, gymnastics, etc that know just about everything there is to know about their kid's sport. Why should cheer be any different?

 

[omgitssydthekid]

While I don't think it is necessary to share the scores with parents after every competition, I do think it would be beneficial to have a parent meeting sometime before competition season, and explain to them how the scoring works. I have had 2 CPs in cheer now for a total of 13 years, and I still do not fully understand how the scoring works or what each judge is actually looking for. Or how some deductions are missed. Or why a higher difficulty level routine lost to a lower level, yet cleaner routine. I honestly think the more informed parents are, the less drama there would be. I understand that each competition is different, it would be nice to at least have an overall understanding. I know parents of other sports, whether it be softball, basketball, gymnastics, etc that know just about everything there is to know about their kid's sport. Why should cheer be any different?

I think an early season parent meeting is a great idea. It's something I hadn't really thought about before (for discussing the scoresheet) but I can totally see it being beneficial. Plus, it would probably alleviate some confusion throughout the season when the team changes things or moves certain people around or spend an entire practice strictly cleaning the opening. I think this is something I'll probably bring up to our gym owner for this upcoming season, thanks FB for bringing it to my attention [emoji1]


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[NJ Coach]

While I don't think it is necessary to share the scores with parents after every competition, I do think it would be beneficial to have a parent meeting sometime before competition season, and explain to them how the scoring works. I have had 2 CPs in cheer now for a total of 13 years, and I still do not fully understand how the scoring works or what each judge is actually looking for. Or how some deductions are missed. Or why a higher difficulty level routine lost to a lower level, yet cleaner routine. I honestly think the more informed parents are, the less drama there would be. I understand that each competition is different, it would be nice to at least have an overall understanding. I know parents of other sports, whether it be softball, basketball, gymnastics, etc that know just about everything there is to know about their kid's sport. Why should cheer be any different?

I'll tell you, I still question those things...every single weekend.

 

[Rudags]

My issues with scoring:

1. As mentioned earlier, we need a system that can be in place for an extended period of years so coaches, judges, etc. can become fully educated.

2. NO SCORESHEET CHANGES MIDSEASON! Removing Switch Ups from the Rubric after choreography season (and the other 'clarifications' ) and in the heat of competition season SUCKED. Make your "clarifications" clear the first go around so there are not any issues.

3. Judges Training. Rewards teams for what they do, not for what they don't do.

4. Take that damned subjective creativity score in stunts and pyramids off the scoresheet. I highly doubt anyone is getting 4.0 difficulty with 5.0 creativity or vice versa. My scoresheets have been pretty dang similar, if not the same in these two categories. 4.8 stunt difficulty, 4.7 creativity. You made the difficulty range bigger, so why not include creativity in that? Its just a double hit if any given weekend a judge is different then the past.

5. More specific tumbling guidelines for standing and running tumbling. We have been 4.2-5.0 all year in standing difficulty for certain teams. Same passes, almost a full point different throwing three sets of varieties passes.

6. I might not make any friends over this one, but its fine, its my opinion. IN MY OPINION, "Big Gyms" typically have the edge in upper level creativity (Personally I think smaller gyms have the upper hand in lower level creativity). IN MY OPINION, I think creativity was added to the scoresheets because big gyms were losing to smaller gyms who were just cleaner back to years ago when you could actually say "Clean wins." Clean doesn't win anymore, you need the total package. Which I slightly agree with - It has pushed my personal choreography to an all time high, but truth be told, some teams I work with can't handle intricate choreography. Not all teams can handle A-Symmetry and all the flash. Some teams need to have some walking formations with simple motions or they take a hit on creativity (because its sloppy and doesn't show the true visual). I used to be able to choreograph teams years ago with a more simple take of a routine (All Symmetrical, Clean stunts and transitions) and they would do great. Now that is a thing of the past and everyone is expected to execute a World Champion Routine to even hang. Bring back the execution matters.

7. I truly believe there is a HUGE miscommunication between the deduction judge and the panel judges on how to score bobbles accurately. You can't bobble all over and still have a 4.9 execution AND not hit get with a deduction. I have seen this more than I would like to as a judge, coach and choreographer. Put Bobbles Back on the Scoresheet.

8. I would love to see the deductions for touch downs, bobbles and falls be much higher. Stunt Fall, 10 Points, Touch Down 5 Points. Bobble 3 Points. This would bring back a bit of "You have to hit to win" and hopefully improve the overall execution and lead to better coaching decisions to water down, and perhaps safety.

9. I have seen at almost EVERY multi-panel event this year a CLEAR difference in scoring (A high panel and a low panel). This directly effects teams going for end of year competition bids (Summit, Worlds, etc) I would like to see more training from the judges prior to an event to ensure all halls and/or panels are on the same page.

10. The same routine that hits back to back weekends should not be 8 pints different. (We had a team, with no changes in it, score an 89.9 and a 96.9 both with deduction free routines for the Same EP with the near exact same execution). Again, there needs to be a sense of industry standard for judges in regards to difficulty and execution.

 

[tumbleyoda]

My issues with scoring:

1. As mentioned earlier, we need a system that can be in place for an extended period of years so coaches, judges, etc. can become fully educated.

2. NO SCORESHEET CHANGES MIDSEASON! Removing Switch Ups from the Rubric after choreography season (and the other 'clarifications' ) and in the heat of competition season SUCKED. Make your "clarifications" clear the first go around so there are not any issues.

3. Judges Training. Rewards teams for what they do, not for what they don't do.

4. Take that damned subjective creativity score in stunts and pyramids off the scoresheet. I highly doubt anyone is getting 4.0 difficulty with 5.0 creativity or vice versa. My scoresheets have been pretty dang similar, if not the same in these two categories. 4.8 stunt difficulty, 4.7 creativity. You made the difficulty range bigger, so why not include creativity in that? Its just a double hit if any given weekend a judge is different then the past.

5. More specific tumbling guidelines for standing and running tumbling. We have been 4.2-5.0 all year in standing difficulty for certain teams. Same passes, almost a full point different throwing three sets of varieties passes.

6. I might not make any friends over this one, but its fine, its my opinion. IN MY OPINION, "Big Gyms" typically have the edge in upper level creativity (Personally I think smaller gyms have the upper hand in lower level creativity). IN MY OPINION, I think creativity was added to the scoresheets because big gyms were losing to smaller gyms who were just cleaner back to years ago when you could actually say "Clean wins." Clean doesn't win anymore, you need the total package. Which I slightly agree with - It has pushed my personal choreography to an all time high, but truth be told, some teams I work with can't handle intricate choreography. Not all teams can handle A-Symmetry and all the flash. Some teams need to have some walking formations with simple motions or they take a hit on creativity (because its sloppy and doesn't show the true visual). I used to be able to choreograph teams years ago with a more simple take of a routine (All Symmetrical, Clean stunts and transitions) and they would do great. Now that is a thing of the past and everyone is expected to execute a World Champion Routine to even hang. Bring back the execution matters.

7. I truly believe there is a HUGE miscommunication between the deduction judge and the panel judges on how to score bobbles accurately. You can't bobble all over and still have a 4.9 execution AND not hit get with a deduction. I have seen this more than I would like to as a judge, coach and choreographer. Put Bobbles Back on the Scoresheet.

8. I would love to see the deductions for touch downs, bobbles and falls be much higher. Stunt Fall, 10 Points, Touch Down 5 Points. Bobble 3 Points. This would bring back a bit of "You have to hit to win" and hopefully improve the overall execution and lead to better coaching decisions to water down, and perhaps safety.

9. I have seen at almost EVERY multi-panel event this year a CLEAR difference in scoring (A high panel and a low panel). This directly effects teams going for end of year competition bids (Summit, Worlds, etc) I would like to see more training from the judges prior to an event to ensure all halls and/or panels are on the same page.

10. The same routine that hits back to back weekends should not be 8 pints different. (We had a team, with no changes in it, score an 89.9 and a 96.9 both with deduction free routines for the Same EP with the near exact same execution). Again, there needs to be a sense of industry standard for judges in regards to difficulty and execution.

100 percent right and on point!

 

[THEJOEL]

My issues with scoring:

1. As mentioned earlier, we need a system that can be in place for an extended period of years so coaches, judges, etc. can become fully educated.

2. NO SCORESHEET CHANGES MIDSEASON! Removing Switch Ups from the Rubric after choreography season (and the other 'clarifications' ) and in the heat of competition season SUCKED. Make your "clarifications" clear the first go around so there are not any issues.

3. Judges Training. Rewards teams for what they do, not for what they don't do.

4. Take that damned subjective creativity score in stunts and pyramids off the scoresheet. I highly doubt anyone is getting 4.0 difficulty with 5.0 creativity or vice versa. My scoresheets have been pretty dang similar, if not the same in these two categories. 4.8 stunt difficulty, 4.7 creativity. You made the difficulty range bigger, so why not include creativity in that? Its just a double hit if any given weekend a judge is different then the past.

5. More specific tumbling guidelines for standing and running tumbling. We have been 4.2-5.0 all year in standing difficulty for certain teams. Same passes, almost a full point different throwing three sets of varieties passes.

6. I might not make any friends over this one, but its fine, its my opinion. IN MY OPINION, "Big Gyms" typically have the edge in upper level creativity (Personally I think smaller gyms have the upper hand in lower level creativity). IN MY OPINION, I think creativity was added to the scoresheets because big gyms were losing to smaller gyms who were just cleaner back to years ago when you could actually say "Clean wins." Clean doesn't win anymore, you need the total package. Which I slightly agree with - It has pushed my personal choreography to an all time high, but truth be told, some teams I work with can't handle intricate choreography. Not all teams can handle A-Symmetry and all the flash. Some teams need to have some walking formations with simple motions or they take a hit on creativity (because its sloppy and doesn't show the true visual). I used to be able to choreograph teams years ago with a more simple take of a routine (All Symmetrical, Clean stunts and transitions) and they would do great. Now that is a thing of the past and everyone is expected to execute a World Champion Routine to even hang. Bring back the execution matters.

7. I truly believe there is a HUGE miscommunication between the deduction judge and the panel judges on how to score bobbles accurately. You can't bobble all over and still have a 4.9 execution AND not hit get with a deduction. I have seen this more than I would like to as a judge, coach and choreographer. Put Bobbles Back on the Scoresheet.

8. I would love to see the deductions for touch downs, bobbles and falls be much higher. Stunt Fall, 10 Points, Touch Down 5 Points. Bobble 3 Points. This would bring back a bit of "You have to hit to win" and hopefully improve the overall execution and lead to better coaching decisions to water down, and perhaps safety.

9. I have seen at almost EVERY multi-panel event this year a CLEAR difference in scoring (A high panel and a low panel). This directly effects teams going for end of year competition bids (Summit, Worlds, etc) I would like to see more training from the judges prior to an event to ensure all halls and/or panels are on the same page.

10. The same routine that hits back to back weekends should not be 8 pints different. (We had a team, with no changes in it, score an 89.9 and a 96.9 both with deduction free routines for the Same EP with the near exact same execution). Again, there needs to be a sense of industry standard for judges in regards to difficulty and execution.

Because 1 shimmy wasn't enough. Especially point #10.

 

[Official OWECheer]

My issues with scoring:

1. As mentioned earlier, we need a system that can be in place for an extended period of years so coaches, judges, etc. can become fully educated.

2. NO SCORESHEET CHANGES MIDSEASON! Removing Switch Ups from the Rubric after choreography season (and the other 'clarifications' ) and in the heat of competition season SUCKED. Make your "clarifications" clear the first go around so there are not any issues.

3. Judges Training. Rewards teams for what they do, not for what they don't do.

4. Take that damned subjective creativity score in stunts and pyramids off the scoresheet. I highly doubt anyone is getting 4.0 difficulty with 5.0 creativity or vice versa. My scoresheets have been pretty dang similar, if not the same in these two categories. 4.8 stunt difficulty, 4.7 creativity. You made the difficulty range bigger, so why not include creativity in that? Its just a double hit if any given weekend a judge is different then the past.

5. More specific tumbling guidelines for standing and running tumbling. We have been 4.2-5.0 all year in standing difficulty for certain teams. Same passes, almost a full point different throwing three sets of varieties passes.

6. I might not make any friends over this one, but its fine, its my opinion. IN MY OPINION, "Big Gyms" typically have the edge in upper level creativity (Personally I think smaller gyms have the upper hand in lower level creativity). IN MY OPINION, I think creativity was added to the scoresheets because big gyms were losing to smaller gyms who were just cleaner back to years ago when you could actually say "Clean wins." Clean doesn't win anymore, you need the total package. Which I slightly agree with - It has pushed my personal choreography to an all time high, but truth be told, some teams I work with can't handle intricate choreography. Not all teams can handle A-Symmetry and all the flash. Some teams need to have some walking formations with simple motions or they take a hit on creativity (because its sloppy and doesn't show the true visual). I used to be able to choreograph teams years ago with a more simple take of a routine (All Symmetrical, Clean stunts and transitions) and they would do great. Now that is a thing of the past and everyone is expected to execute a World Champion Routine to even hang. Bring back the execution matters.

7. I truly believe there is a HUGE miscommunication between the deduction judge and the panel judges on how to score bobbles accurately. You can't bobble all over and still have a 4.9 execution AND not hit get with a deduction. I have seen this more than I would like to as a judge, coach and choreographer. Put Bobbles Back on the Scoresheet.

8. I would love to see the deductions for touch downs, bobbles and falls be much higher. Stunt Fall, 10 Points, Touch Down 5 Points. Bobble 3 Points. This would bring back a bit of "You have to hit to win" and hopefully improve the overall execution and lead to better coaching decisions to water down, and perhaps safety.

9. I have seen at almost EVERY multi-panel event this year a CLEAR difference in scoring (A high panel and a low panel). This directly effects teams going for end of year competition bids (Summit, Worlds, etc) I would like to see more training from the judges prior to an event to ensure all halls and/or panels are on the same page.

10. The same routine that hits back to back weekends should not be 8 pints different. (We had a team, with no changes in it, score an 89.9 and a 96.9 both with deduction free routines for the Same EP with the near exact same execution). Again, there needs to be a sense of industry standard for judges in regards to difficulty and execution.

Amen to all of this.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

My issues with scoring:

1. As mentioned earlier, we need a system that can be in place for an extended period of years so coaches, judges, etc. can become fully educated.

2. NO SCORESHEET CHANGES MIDSEASON! Removing Switch Ups from the Rubric after choreography season (and the other 'clarifications' ) and in the heat of competition season SUCKED. Make your "clarifications" clear the first go around so there are not any issues.

3. Judges Training. Rewards teams for what they do, not for what they don't do.

4. Take that damned subjective creativity score in stunts and pyramids off the scoresheet. I highly doubt anyone is getting 4.0 difficulty with 5.0 creativity or vice versa. My scoresheets have been pretty dang similar, if not the same in these two categories. 4.8 stunt difficulty, 4.7 creativity. You made the difficulty range bigger, so why not include creativity in that? Its just a double hit if any given weekend a judge is different then the past.

5. More specific tumbling guidelines for standing and running tumbling. We have been 4.2-5.0 all year in standing difficulty for certain teams. Same passes, almost a full point different throwing three sets of varieties passes.

6. I might not make any friends over this one, but its fine, its my opinion. IN MY OPINION, "Big Gyms" typically have the edge in upper level creativity (Personally I think smaller gyms have the upper hand in lower level creativity). IN MY OPINION, I think creativity was added to the scoresheets because big gyms were losing to smaller gyms who were just cleaner back to years ago when you could actually say "Clean wins." Clean doesn't win anymore, you need the total package. Which I slightly agree with - It has pushed my personal choreography to an all time high, but truth be told, some teams I work with can't handle intricate choreography. Not all teams can handle A-Symmetry and all the flash. Some teams need to have some walking formations with simple motions or they take a hit on creativity (because its sloppy and doesn't show the true visual). I used to be able to choreograph teams years ago with a more simple take of a routine (All Symmetrical, Clean stunts and transitions) and they would do great. Now that is a thing of the past and everyone is expected to execute a World Champion Routine to even hang. Bring back the execution matters.

7. I truly believe there is a HUGE miscommunication between the deduction judge and the panel judges on how to score bobbles accurately. You can't bobble all over and still have a 4.9 execution AND not hit get with a deduction. I have seen this more than I would like to as a judge, coach and choreographer. Put Bobbles Back on the Scoresheet.

8. I would love to see the deductions for touch downs, bobbles and falls be much higher. Stunt Fall, 10 Points, Touch Down 5 Points. Bobble 3 Points. This would bring back a bit of "You have to hit to win" and hopefully improve the overall execution and lead to better coaching decisions to water down, and perhaps safety.

9. I have seen at almost EVERY multi-panel event this year a CLEAR difference in scoring (A high panel and a low panel). This directly effects teams going for end of year competition bids (Summit, Worlds, etc) I would like to see more training from the judges prior to an event to ensure all halls and/or panels are on the same page.

10. The same routine that hits back to back weekends should not be 8 pints different. (We had a team, with no changes in it, score an 89.9 and a 96.9 both with deduction free routines for the Same EP with the near exact same execution). Again, there needs to be a sense of industry standard for judges in regards to difficulty and execution.

All the things.

 

[Beans100]

I'll use level 1 as an example but couldn't scoring be like this-

There is a baseline scoresheet for every level that explains the middle requirements for every section. That section starts at a total of 50 points.
Ex- Standing tumbling
50 points if 15/20 girls have a back walkover
+1 point for every extra girl who has a back walkover (i.e. if 19/20 girls have bwo then score is 54/50)
-1 point for every girl who does not have a back walkover (i.e. if 12/20 girls have bwo then score is 47/50)
Ex- Stunts
50 points if 4/5 halves go up(some groups might require a front spot)
+2 points for each group that hits 2 body positions, +1 point if group only hits 1 body position
+2 points for each group that executes transition skill (tick tock, full up (not level 1) etc)
Ex Judge's Perspective
5 points are given to each judge who can give points for creativity/innovation/originality

I guess something like this could get complicated, but it would make things more numerical and coaches would know exactly how many points their stunt section will earn if executed. The 5 points for creativity is a minor part of the score sheet but still encourages teams to use their imaginations and come up with new things.