All-Star Illegal Elements (just To Raise Awareness)

[King]

I might feel different than most but I think these kind of discussions are rather important. They do bring up safety and do have an impact (Gt / prone last year). It really is a ripple effect. Even though a gym out in Walla Walla Bing Bang has no idea why release to prone is now legal, it is all because of the actions on this board that it transpired. So as uncomfortable or harsh as some of the discussions can be on here (and in general I think anything on here is rather tame compared to twitter/facebook/youtube comments and a heckuva lot more intelligent) they are wonderful change agents.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

I've never really had a problem w/him (and still don't) bc ultimately I trust Courtney. I was surprised to see some of the things I saw (read) bc I did think he was a bit above that. I'm not trying to make this a "hate" this person thread, but I do feel like I have a right to express my opinions as well, given the context in which I have seen things.

Sorry that it bothered/annoyed you.

Do you think some of the coments made by DJ in defense of your program were appropriate?

 

[CharlotteASMom]

I might feel different than most but I think these kind of discussions are rather important. They do bring up safety and do have an impact (Gt / prone last year). It really is a ripple effect. Even though a gym out in Walla Walla Bing Bang has no idea why release to prone is now legal, it is all because of the actions on this board that it transpired. So as uncomfortable or harsh as some of the discussions can be on here (and in general I think anything on here is rather tame compared to twitter/facebook/youtube comments and a heckuva lot more intelligent) they are wonderful change agents.

I whole heartedly agree with you.

I also believe that with CEA's culture for high profile visibility, it is unprofessional to compete a known illegal skill that other small less known gyms may assume is now permissable.

 

[chyeeaaa69]

I think most of the "it's for the athlete's safety" comments are bull. Yes, it is slightly more risky for athletes to be training and competing things that are outside of the realm of what they should be doing, but to the people who act like they're so concerned about athlete's safety, it's pretty obvious none of you are. I respect Courtney as a coach, and though I may not like CEA as a program, I do think that she knows what she's doing. The reason this thread has turned into an attack on Courtney (which I'm hoping my previous post was not, I tried to state that it wasn't) is because of the people involved, and many use the "athlete safety" argument as a ploy to insult Courtney herself. I'm all for athlete safety, and in cases where I see something that is genuinely dangerous to an athlete, I can understand, but this pyramid element, though it's illegal, is not very complicated, and if anyone can pull it off, it's CEA.
Do I think it's stupid to throw illegal skills in competition? Yes, but I also think it's stupid for people to act like they care about athlete safety when they clearly don't.

ETA: I do completely understand and agree with the point that smaller gyms will see and assume it's legal.

 

[King]

I think most of the "it's for the athlete's safety" comments are bull. Yes, it is slightly more risky for athletes to be training and competing things that are outside of the realm of what they should be doing, but to the people who act like they're so concerned about athlete's safety, it's pretty obvious none of you are. I respect Courtney as a coach, and though I may not like CEA as a program, I do think that she knows what she's doing. The reason this thread has turned into an attack on Courtney (which I'm hoping my previous post was not, I tried to state that it wasn't) is because of the people involved, and many use the "athlete safety" argument as a ploy to insult Courtney herself. I'm all for athlete safety, and in cases where I see something that is genuinely dangerous to an athlete, I can understand, but this pyramid element, though it's illegal, is not very complicated, and if anyone can pull it off, it's CEA.
Do I think it's stupid to throw illegal skills in competition? Yes, but I also think it's stupid for people to act like they care about athlete safety when they clearly don't.

ETA: I do completely understand and agree with the point that smaller gyms will see and assume it's legal.

Actually I DO care about athlete safety. I get questions from small programs about the legality of issues who are not prepared to try this type of stuff. It is quite narrow vision to think it doesn't have ripples. I'm sorry if you just aren't smart enough to see it.

 

[newcheerdad]

I whole heartedly agree with you.

I also believe that with CEA's culture for high profile visibility, it is unprofessional to compete a known illegal skill that other small less known gyms may assume is now permissable.

I'm far less inclined to suggest that this is a "known illegal skill" rather than CE doing what the best gyms do - push the envelope.

I agree with Kingston in that these discussions are important. Cheer, in my limited exposure, is a pretty self-policing sport. We shouldn't be afraid to ask these questions, and we should be able to have these exchanges in a respectful manner.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

I'm far less inclined to suggest that this is a "known illegal skill" rather than CE doing what the best gyms do - push the envelope.

Why do you say so? The discussion here seems to suggest it is clearly ilegal BUT has an easy fix.

 

[newcheerdad]

Why do you say so? The discussion here seems to suggest it is clearly ilegal BUT has an easy fix.

First off, I don't make judgments on whether a stunt is "clearly" illegal or not. I'm not a rules expert.

I also tend to give people the benefit of the doubt - that perhaps the intent of stunt wasn't for it to be illegal, but the execution is giving the appearance that it is. I don't assign nefarious motives to anyone without reason to do so.

Even if you're slightly more cynical - if the stunt is that obviously against the rules as some are suggesting, and their coaches know it, then why would a coach risk keeping it in their routine? The risk of getting caught at the worst possible time (like Worlds day 1) seems to outweigh whatever modest benefit you'd get from having it in.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

I might feel different than most but I think these kind of discussions are rather important. They do bring up safety and do have an impact (Gt / prone last year). It really is a ripple effect. Even though a gym out in Walla Walla Bing Bang has no idea why release to prone is now legal, it is all because of the actions on this board that it transpired. So as uncomfortable or harsh as some of the discussions can be on here (and in general I think anything on here is rather tame compared to twitter/facebook/youtube comments and a heckuva lot more intelligent) they are wonderful change agents.

Again, I think that posting a video that is public and discussing a legality issue, why it is legal or illegal and what that may mean for other athletes, coaches and gyms looking at the video is positive. Nothing wrong with that. As previous, I believe Mr. Stella felt the need to note things were not legal on the Showcase video, unfortunately without any follow up or specifics. It could have been a more informative exercise. However, he did not imply she was being unprofessional, and if I'm reading things correctly here her peers on this thread are not making that claim. What does the act of calling her or her organization unprofessional do to advance the discussion and the sport? I say, nothing. It serves another agenda. It is unnecessary.

 

[King]

Again, I think that posting a video that is public and discussing a legality issue, why it is legal or illegal and what that may mean for other athletes, coaches and gyms looking at the video is positive. Nothing wrong with that. As previous, I believe Mr. Stella felt the need to note things were not legal on the Showcase video, unfortunately without any follow up or specifics. It could have been a more informative exercise. However, he did not imply she was being unprofessional, and if I'm reading things correctly here her peers on this thread are not making that claim. What does the act of calling her or her organization unprofessional do to advance the discussion and the sport? I say, nothing. It serves another agenda. It is unnecessary.

I can't speak for the tact of some. As long as it plays by the rules being elegant with words is not a requirement.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

It is unprofessional in my opinion to agree to a set of rules and not adhere to them. It is also the first part of the iPromise Coaches pledge which if I am not mistaken, CEA endorsed.

P…to play by the Rules and the spirit of their intention.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

I can't speak for the tact of some. As long as it plays by the rules being elegant with words is not a requirement.

But it is acceptable to note and comment on the exercise, as long as it plays by the rules? As is said, the sunshine is often the best disinfectant.

 

[UnfadedSprkl]

Just to clarify, I am a USASF certified saefety judge and coach. There are many reasons why myself and other safety judges want to bring these legalities to the attention of everyone, not just an email to the team performing them. And I am speaking for myself. Some of you may have met safety judges with other agendas...but that is not me and not the majority of the judges I have worked along side. As much as you may think we are being bias, we are really just doing our jobs.

First - This is a team vying for a bid to Worlds. And if a team doesn't get their bid to worlds because of a Safety violation...then who loses? The kids, the parents and the coaches. Never a good outcome.

Second - At competitions....I HATE giving a team a safety deduction! It's painful! As a coach who has seen kids lose due to an execution error or loss of connection somewhere, it is devistating. The kids take the loss for something that truly was beyond their control. Just like is stated on this board. We all trust in our coaches' decisions. We trust that they know what they are doing and don't question their innovative choreography. It is very hard for safety judges to have to call a penalty at a large (or even small) event...especially one with such a huge outcome, such as a National Championship, World Bid or even World Championship. We know that it will impact every athlete on that team and how much the outcome may have meant to them.

Third - The safety of other teams. Do I think that some athletes can handle more diffecult skills and pushing the grey areas? Yes. But Po Dunk All Stars or even HS and Rec teams try to emulate these athletes. Not to mention the international teams. I have judged internationally and some of those teams will perform their entire routine to CEA's World's Music from 2010 or Top Gun. Cheerleading has grown so much and is looked up to by many younger generations. With that comes a responsibility to ensure the safety of all athletes, which is why the rules are in place.

 

[tumbleyoda]

The difference between getting hit with an illegality deduction vs an execution error is critical in many competitions. My concern is that some can get illegalities argued over/down to execution errors while "But Why Cant We do What they Just Did" All Stars will get hit ll day and night with illegalities. They are not given the credit for knowing the rules, safety etc. JMO.

 

[Rudags]

To stay in content with this thread... I have seen the following errors at comps this season VERY often:

Level 2: You can not do a back walkover out of a cradle for a dismount. It is ILLEGAL.
Level 4: You can not do an arabian in the pyramid that is braced on either side. No flipping and spinning.