All Star Rec

[juscheerthatisall]

Very excited to see this topic I definitely think rec cheer needs to be regulated. In my area it has gotten completely out of control but most people (usasf, ep's etc) choose to ignore it bcuz they don't think it effects them, but it really does! Basically these people are cheating they charge less money (because the ep's charge them less) and operate as a fully functional Allstar team. The recs I know share tumble instructors and choreographers with Allstar teams, who also charge them less but don't realize they r giving them the same level of service. They order professional music mixes, travel all over to compete, and wouldn't be able to execute a single sideline cheer if asked. Most of the top organizations operate this way so they don't complain about each other, they hold the top 3-5 spots (depending on how many show up) at all the comps and all the real rec prog just fight for the rest. How does this effect the rest of the industry? These teams are growing like wildfire, kids from allstar programs switch to rec every year because they get the same experience for a lower price. The kids honestly don't care who they are competing against especially if they are now in a winning program. Ep's are losing out because these teams that should be Allstar are paying the Rec price. Now rec teams follow the same level play and rules as Allstar, the only exception is there is no level 5. If nothing is done about this kids will start cheering level 1-4 with a competitive rec team and Allstar will just become the place to go for level 5.

Another huge issue is the use of Allstar athletes especially at us finals. Since worlds teams don't compete there some teams have started using these athletes to stack their senior 3 and 4 team. There is nothing worse than having a winning team all year long only to get to finals and realize u don't have a shot...

 

[juscheerthatisall]

Also needed to add as I read thru this thread there are really great allstars teams and really bad all star teams I don't agree with the statement "not ready for Allstar". U may not be ready to compete against cea or world cup but craptastic allstars are still allstars and they would be wrong if they said that's enough losing lets be craptastic Rec. also FYI there are hundreds of non profit Allstar gyms with volunteer coaches, definition definitely needed.

 

[cheermommaRN]

If nothing is done about this kids will start cheering level 1-4 with a competitive rec team and Allstar will just become the place to go for level 5.

I don't understand why this specifically is an issue? There are many families out there that would LOVE to do the full all star experience but dont have the funds. I absolutely can not afford All Star cheer anymore but I can afford All Star Prep. So what if she competes prep until she's level 5? In any other sport you can chose to stay rec for as long as you want, or you can take it up a notch and go club.
I think the long term question should be...if all star gyms can afford to give these kids almost the same experience why are they fleecing the AS parents for so much?

 

[SparkleSpankies]

Seriously, half the problem w/ cheer all together is people want to make up their own rules. Rec is rec. Unpaid coaches, cheer for fun even if you have a team that is better then most h/s or all star teams. Honestly rec should be wrapped around a local youth organization whether they cheer games or not. If they are all-star rec don't cheer games. That would solve a lot of problems.

All-Star... gym based, typically competitive even at lower levels, with unis/travel/instruction/facility, costly. All-Star Prep is a stupid division (sorry for those out there who don't think it is). Are you all star or not. Half year teams can be just as good or better.

School cheer - enough said. Follow school rules for your state/area. Don't make up your own. You cheer for school. End of story.

Sorry, this topic just seems so silly to be arguing over!

 

[Cheer4lyfe]

I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread, I am a Director of a All Star program that practices in a community gym, on mats, with volunteer coaches
We have national championships that we earned, we charge $400 a SEASON, and we compete with strictly all stars and wouldn't have it any other way
Is it hard, YES
Do we have to work even harder, YES
But as far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter if you cheer in a box, or if your coaches are paid a million dollars, if you cheer for sport- competitively only, YOU ARE ALL STARS
If you don't think your kids can hang for whatever reason, work harder, adjust your level to suit their abilities
When we first started we had 1 level 2 jr team, now we have over 7 teams, ranging level 1-4 and over 100 cheerleaders, all with foam mats, volunteer coaches, and not alot of $ required
I honestly don't see how any other variables have anything to do with the category
Just my opinion though

 

[Callmeboots]

I don't understand why this specifically is an issue? There are many families out there that would LOVE to do the full all star experience but dont have the funds.

I completely agree, why can't we adapt rec cheer instead of pushing them to be all-stars? We all want the kids to thrive in the best environment, and it's not fair to them to not have the same skills as these big name all star gyms in the area and force them to compete against them. People say "Oh, well just work harder."

It doesn't always work like that, we are a REC team, no we don't cheer at games, but we have kids that play for other sports so don't have the same commitment level of a full year all star team, we take everyone, no matter the level, there's no tryouts, but you're telling me that because I don't cheer for another sport that I should force them to go all star Level 1 and probably still not win? I have kids on my team that can barely do a cartwheel. I am not a tumbling coach, my kids go elsewhere to take tumbling, we have three back handsprings on our entire team of 22, they can stunt and jump just fine, so why hold them back?

What is wrong with competitive recreational leagues? It doesn't make sense. I've coached rec my entire life, I just switched over to no game day cheering this year. My coaching skills have evolved, yes, but not to an all star level. Every single thing about us is rec, except for the fact that we don't cheer at games.

As a business, we probably wouldn't survive as all stars because we have one of the biggest names in the industry right in our town. There is a market for competitive rec, and I don't understand why people want to hold it back. I see more competitive rec teams popping up every day, and I've been on both sides...I've been game day cheer before, I get why people would be mad competing against a team that doesn't have to go through the time of teaching cheers and stuff, but I can use everyone's same argument against them "If you can't hang, work harder." Most of these competitions where all star rec is even an issue competing against regular rec teams is post football season anyway, and most rec teams are tied to a league where they have their own inner competition circuit...so MOST of these competitions are an extra thing while they're competitive only.

As long as there are no rules against it, I am going to continue operating my business as usual, and people that don't like it can just deal.

 

[rmo15]

I think all star prep is a great idea, and our all star program has offered a program with those ideas/tactics for 5 years. Has been super successful and gives kids an opportunity to try all stars and/or have a team to go to after football season.

Something that concerns me is that is quite alarming are teams just randomly forming with no qualified coaches or under a governing body (Mom A decided she doesn't like her little loop team anymore so SHE is starting her own team next season, and the girls will just compete!) They are then attending local competitions and registering as Rec. Well, the rec teams are upset because they spend their time sidelining and don't feel it's fair. But Mom A's team is not at the all star caliber (understood). So are they also all star prep? Or where do they fall?

 

[Cheer4lyfe]

I think all star prep is a great idea, and our all star program has offered a program with those ideas/tactics for 5 years. Has been super successful and gives kids an opportunity to try all stars and/or have a team to go to after football season.

Something that concerns me is that is quite alarming are teams just randomly forming with no qualified coaches or under a governing body (Mom A decided she doesn't like her little loop team anymore so SHE is starting her own team next season, and the girls will just compete!) They are then attending local competitions and registering as Rec. Well, the rec teams are upset because they spend their time sidelining and don't feel it's fair. But Mom A's team is not at the all star caliber (understood). So are they also all star prep? Or where do they fall?

This is my exact concern, because technically they ARENT even all star prep according to the current regs, because all star prep is a half year team, so that means they would have to have a shorter season to qualify.

 

[MomOf2ThatsMe]

But Mom A's team is not at the all star caliber (understood). So are they also all star prep? Or where do they fall?

That would be at the discretion of the EP. Since Rec divisions are not sanctioned nor governed by the USASF(at this point), there are no rules regarding that division, and who qualifies for it. Therefore it may very between EP's. Some may have no rules as to who can enter the competition as a Rec team, some may say that the team must have to cheer sideline, etc,etc.

Per the USASF website the Allstar Prep division is a trial division. The only criteria for entering the division is that the routine not be more than 2 minutes in length, and there be no crossovers between the Allstar Prep division & Allstar. The rules also state that EP's may enforce additional criteria (at their discretion) such as the division being only for teams who practice half-year, etc. So, theoretically Mom A's team can compete in any division (rec, prep, allstar) depending on the competition and the rules of the event producer.

 

[rmo15]

That would be at the discretion of the EP. Since Rec divisions are not sanctioned nor governed by the USASF(at this point), there are no rules regarding that division, and who qualifies for it. Therefore it may very between EP's. Some may have no rules as to who can enter the competition as a Rec team, some may say that the team must have to cheer sideline, etc,etc.

Per the USASF website the Allstar Prep division is a trial division. The only criteria for entering the division is that the routine not be more than 2 minutes in length, and there be no crossovers between the Allstar Prep division & Allstar. The rules also state that EP's may enforce additional criteria (at their discretion) such as the division being only for teams who practice half-year, etc. So, theoretically Mom A's team can compete in any division (rec, prep, allstar) depending on the competition and the rules of the event producer.

Another thing that I know was discussed in the past was being a legitimate organization (for example, having a Tax ID #) to enroll for competitions. I think with USASF's eventual mandatory athlete enrollment, that will help the industry further regulate divisions.

I am glad that all star prep allows no crossovers. We did that last year and look forward to competing against other teams following the same rules. I think that's definitely one positive way to regulate the division.

 

[Tosh]

I completely agree, why can't we adapt rec cheer instead of pushing them to be all-stars? We all want the kids to thrive in the best environment, and it's not fair to them to not have the same skills as these big name all star gyms in the area and force them to compete against them. People say "Oh, well just work harder."

It doesn't always work like that, we are a REC team, no we don't cheer at games, but we have kids that play for other sports so don't have the same commitment level of a full year all star team, we take everyone, no matter the level, there's no tryouts, but you're telling me that because I don't cheer for another sport that I should force them to go all star Level 1 and probably still not win? I have kids on my team that can barely do a cartwheel. I am not a tumbling coach, my kids go elsewhere to take tumbling, we have three back handsprings on our entire team of 22, they can stunt and jump just fine, so why hold them back?

What is wrong with competitive recreational leagues? It doesn't make sense. I've coached rec my entire life, I just switched over to no game day cheering this year. My coaching skills have evolved, yes, but not to an all star level. Every single thing about us is rec, except for the fact that we don't cheer at games.

As a business, we probably wouldn't survive as all stars because we have one of the biggest names in the industry right in our town. There is a market for competitive rec, and I don't understand why people want to hold it back. I see more competitive rec teams popping up every day, and I've been on both sides...I've been game day cheer before, I get why people would be mad competing against a team that doesn't have to go through the time of teaching cheers and stuff, but I can use everyone's same argument against them "If you can't hang, work harder." Most of these competitions where all star rec is even an issue competing against regular rec teams is post football season anyway, and most rec teams are tied to a league where they have their own inner competition circuit...so MOST of these competitions are an extra thing while they're competitive only.

As long as there are no rules against it, I am going to continue operating my business as usual, and people that don't like it can just deal.

I could not disagree with you more.
1st. If you are a rec program and cheer for games (football/basketball) you have to spend practice time working on cheers and chants instead of a competition routine.
2nd. Because rec is a community program, finding space to practice is a major hastle. there is alway the option of going to a local gym, but that cost money of which many parents do not have. Keep in mind that the reason for most rec programs is to provide activities for kids of the community they live in. example: Kids that live in relatively the same neighborhood, literally accorss the street, can not be involved in our rec program because that street divides the township, so they live in another township and can not participate in our program.
3rd. Because football season ends the end of November/beginning of December, has nothing to do with when the girls compete. Most rec programs end prior to the Holiday season, so you are literally speaking about no more than two weeks of no game cheering.
So, the amount of practice time and available practice along gives none-game cheering teams/competition only teams a huge advantage over regular rec programs. So yes, create a seperate div for these kids so they can compete against each other while the true rec programs compete against their equals. It is dis-heartening to see the look on some little girls faces when the are proud of what they just did on the competition floor and then sit there and watch the team their competing against in sparkly uniforms and doing stunts that they cant do because the have not had enough time to prictice or not to mention throughing stunts that are illegal......because there are no regulations as to what they can and can not do.
I saw so many basket tosses this weekend at a competition from minis and pee wees that made me wonder and ask the question, what rules are they following?
Just my two cents.

 

[Cheer4lyfe]

Shimmy a billion times. We cheer all star for this EXACT reason. We are a not for profit All Star program, which could easily compete in the rec divisions in our area. We choose not to because we are competition only. As you said, we dont spend time on cheering sideline, etc. We are competitive cheerleaders. What fun is it going to a competition knowing your going to kill the other teams because you have a hand picked team, that takes tumbling class and only practices to compete. Kinds defeats the competitive fun.

Can I also extend this. There has been alot of negative press about cheerleading once again. And while I am not opposed to this new "All Star Prep" division. I can see it getting ugly REALLY fast. It is basically an invitation for Suzy Q to start her own cheer team, with whom and wherever she likes. If the powers that be dont get some regulations on this division quick, it is going to be a nightmare in the making.

While I am a nobody in the world may I suggest this structure:

Rec: Anyone who cheers for a team. It doesnt matter how the teams are selected, or if their coaches are paid, etc, etc. You cheer for a team, your rec.

All Star Prep: Half year teams, or not for profit teams/ community teams. You don't cheer for a team, but you are either a team that practices half year, or you are a not for profit team. You have to register with USASF as a program, so they can regulate the teams accordingly.

All Star: Speaks for itself.

All these variables that people talk about really are the nature of the beast. If I have access to a gym with springs and you dont, find springs, but if you cheer for a football team and want to compete, your time is split, there is nothing you can do to prevent that or change it.

We just need to get on the same page as a sport. Otherwise we will embarrass ourselves to the people who dont respect this sport to begin with.

I could not disagree with you more.
1st. If you are a rec program and cheer for games (football/basketball) you have to spend practice time working on cheers and chants instead of a competition routine.
2nd. Because rec is a community program, finding space to practice is a major hastle. there is alway the option of going to a local gym, but that cost money of which many parents do not have. Keep in mind that the reason for most rec programs is to provide activities for kids of the community they live in. example: Kids that live in relatively the same neighborhood, literally accorss the street, can not be involved in our rec program because that street divides the township, so they live in another township and can not participate in our program.
3rd. Because football season ends the end of November/beginning of December, has nothing to do with when the girls compete. Most rec programs end prior to the Holiday season, so you are literally speaking about no more than two weeks of no game cheering.
So, the amount of practice time and available practice along gives none-game cheering teams/competition only teams a huge advantage over regular rec programs. So yes, create a seperate div for these kids so they can compete against each other while the true rec programs compete against their equals. It is dis-heartening to see the look on some little girls faces when the are proud of what they just did on the competition floor and then sit there and watch the team their competing against in sparkly uniforms and doing stunts that they cant do because the have not had enough time to prictice or not to mention throughing stunts that are illegal......because there are no regulations as to what they can and can not do.
I saw so many basket tosses this weekend at a competition from minis and pee wees that made me wonder and ask the question, what rules are they following?
Just my two cents.

 

[Callmeboots]

Whatever, I'm obviously not going to win this argument...except for the fact that it's completely legal and there are hundreds of programs that do this. Not cheating.

 

[Kel Kell]

Whatever, I'm obviously not going to win this argument...except for the fact that it's completely legal and there are hundreds of programs that do this. Not cheating.

Totally on your side! You are not cheating.

So as far as I see it if you have open enrollment and field a squad of girls where everyone is placed on squads based on age only, not skill level, then you are a Rec team. If you cheer for games then good for you, my girls cheer for games and they still compete at the same level as several teams that don't. Part of being open enrollment means allowing everyone, even All Star cheerleaders.

Can you pump a rec team full of all star girls SURE if they sign up in time I don't see any reason to exclude them! I love when I get an all star girl on my team! It inspires the other girls to try hard and learn the skills that she has, and she loves cheering at games.

 

[Callmeboots]

Totally on your side! You are not cheating.

I guess it's just frustrating..because all the time I coached Pop Warner and had to compete against the girls that didn't cheer at games, I never even thought "Well they are actually all stars, so don't get upset because they beat you."

But I guess that's because I've seen Pop Warner teams that are better than most all star teams out there. Just last year a team in our local league had kick doubles and a girl with a full. They take their program seriously, and I think instead of dumbing down the rec category and saying "Well...we shouldn't expect as much of them." Why not get qualified coaches that would push the program, rather than settling?

I think that if the all star prep division didn't have the 2:00 minute time limit, this would settle everything though. If rec teams have to learn at 2:30 in 3 months, so can a half year team. I know it's to prevent crossovers and dropping down to the prep division, but make everyone register at the beginning of the season and don't let them change. Problem solved.