All-Star Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

[BigBow]

not being at a big famous gym doesn't mean you're at craptastic all stars.


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[cheernerd5678]

not being at a big famous gym doesn't mean you're at craptastic all stars.


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:kiss:

 

[stuntjumptumble]

Upon seeing this idea I agreed with it. But after reading through the thread I changed my mind. What I dislike about worlds as it is is the teams that compete that are barely level 5 and have no chance of advancing past prelims. I think problem lies in the fact that too many bids are given out. I agree that a division 2 "world champion" wouldn't be ideal


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[just_kay_today]

Big gyms became that way because when they were small, they took their losses, learned from them, and got better. People noticed, and the talent beat a path to their door. It didn't happen overnight. Before the winning, there is always a lot of losing!

I feel like an old man at a little league game for saying this but...LET THE KIDS PLAY! LET THEM COMPETE! Everyone can't win everything. Every team should not receive a bid to Worlds.
If you split the divisions, then have the two champions go head to head for the undisputed championship? Okay! Yes! I'm all for a David, slaying a Goliath! But, what kind of gladiator are you, if your opponent is pre-measured to give you a better chance to win, before you enter the arena? Where's the sport in that? Where's the glory and triumph? These kids are COMPETITIVE athletes. Make no mistake; glory and triumph matter to them!

But, more importantly, that's not real life. The scales are very seldom balanced in the real world. They'll face many, many Goliaths in their lives. What lessons are we teaching our kids?

 

[dawgshow]

But if one division is perceived to be more or another less, who wants to win the secondary title?

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All those gyms that brag about winning Billy Bob's Ultra Nationals. Ok, not really.
Honestly, though, I don't see it as an industry wide put down to win DII. I know plenty of athletes who would be proud to say "we came in top 10 in our division at Worlds."

 

[courtness_m]

I still think girls will leave their d2 gyms to win the d1 worlds title. I feel like it doesn't matter how "loyal" you are to your gym. If you have the skills, you want to be a part of the big famous gym. I would rather be a Shooting Star than some girl on the d2 team at craptastic all stars... just my opinion.


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Twist & Shout would be considered D2 under these size guidelines being thrown around, and you wouldn't consider them a big famous gym?

 

[kristenthegreat]

I just think of how excited Macs was to place in 3rd. And consider it this way- yes they might have won at D2, but would it have felt the same? I don't know, you'd have to ask someone from there..Or for CJA to break top 10- would they rather have that accomplishment or win but against smaller teams?

 

[alexacheer2010]

Twist & Shout would be considered D2 under these size guidelines being thrown around, and you wouldn't consider them a big famous gym?

I'm just thinking the smaller gyms that make a level 5 team out of ten girls with level 5 skills and the rest with level 4 skills. I don't think if you're at a well known gym you're going anywhere. So no I wouldn't leave twist and shout, but I would leave a tiny gym for a better shot if I was an elite level 5 athlete. I just keep remembering how cruel kids can be and I know that a whole lot of "well you didn't beat the big important teams" would be going on. And as a 12 to 18 year old, that in itself would push me to go to a D1 gym. Don't you think Twist and Shout would go D1 anyway because they CAN compete with the other D1 teams?


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[just_kay_today]

I just think of how excited Macs was to place in 3rd. And consider it this way- yes they might have won at D2, but would it have felt the same? I don't know, you'd have to ask someone from there..Or for CJA to break top 10- would they rather have that accomplishment or win but against smaller teams?

Ah...but in here lies the rub! I believe that the athletes would want to beat every team in their division.
But, the gym owner will hang that "World Champion" banner like the billboard it was designed to be, by this proposal. Just like those "National Championship" banners you see in many gyms - where the teams had no competition in their division. The hope is that current and potential customers will see the banner and not care which division the rings came from, just that they now have an opportunity to secure one for their CP at this small gym.

So, once again, it's the "who" vs the "what". In this case the "who" is what the athletes are interested in attaining vs the business side and its interests.

None are necessarily villainous. They are, in fact, interdependent. But, as a mom who makes sacrifices to pay, I want my daughter to have the experience she would like to have. I'm interested in what will ultimately give her and her teammates the best cheer experience, and that will help them to grow as people after they leave the sport of cheer.

 

[MissCongeniality]

Ah...but in here lies the rub! I believe that the athletes would want to beat every team in their division.
But, the gym owner will hang that "World Champion" banner like the billboard it was designed to be, by this proposal. Just like those "National Championship" banners you see in many gyms - where the teams had no competition in their division. The hope is that current and potential customers will see the banner and not care which division the rings came from, just that they now have an opportunity to secure one for their CP at this small gym.

So, once again, it's the "who" vs the "what". In this case the "who" is what the athletes are interested in attaining vs the business side and its interests.

None are necessarily villainous. They are, in fact, interdependent. But, as a mom who makes sacrifices to pay, I want my daughter to have the experience she would like to have. I'm interested in what will ultimately give her and her teammates the best cheer experience, and that will help them to grow as people after they leave the sport of cheer.

I wish I could shimmy this a thousand times! You have hit the nail on the head!

 

[p.o.k.]

All those gyms that brag about winning Billy Bob's Ultra Nationals. Ok, not really.
Honestly, though, I don't see it as an industry wide put down to win DII. I know plenty of athletes who would be proud to say "we came in top 10 in our division at Worlds."

So with two divisions within the parent division there would be two top tens or conversely a top twenty. Just not as meaningful as top ten in one division of say 82 teams as it was in 2013 or years past - where the field is leveled. Again all you have to do is read this thread and see how the industry will feel about the consolation division.

 

[Rudags]

I haven't read through the entire thread but here are some points I would like to make.

*I WANT to compete against the best at Worlds. End of Story. Even if it means getting our butts kicked.

*In 2010 I took my team to Worlds (for the first time) on a At-Large Bid and we knew we wouldn't make it out of Prelims. We didnt have the drive or determination and unfortunately got our butts kicked.

*In 2011 I took a team to Worlds on a full paid bid and we made it all the way to finals (placing the highest in our States history). While many can say we didnt "deserve" to be there in 2010, the experienced help my kids learn what it was all about.

Last year we had rebuilding year (1 kid ever attended worlds before) and got an At-Large bid and making it past Prelims was NOT a goal. This year, same spot we were in 2011, we are aiming towards full paid and top 10.

You all can rant and rave about teams not deserving to go, but I wouldn't be where I am right now without that opportunity.

Video Comparison of what one year at Worlds can do:
2010:


2011:

 

[kristenthegreat]

I haven't read through the entire thread but here are some points I would like to make.

*I WANT to compete against the best at Worlds. End of Story. Even if it means getting our butts kicked.

*In 2010 I took my team to Worlds (for the first time) on a At-Large Bid and we knew we wouldn't make it out of Prelims. We didnt have the drive or determination and unfortunately got our butts kicked.

*In 2011 I took a team to Worlds on a full paid bid and we made it all the way to finals (placing the highest in our States history). While many can say we didnt "deserve" to be there in 2010, the experienced help my kids learn what it was all about.

Last year we had rebuilding year (1 kid ever attended worlds before) and got an At-Large bid and making it past Prelims was NOT a goal. This year, same spot we were in 2011, we are aiming towards full paid and top 10.

You all can rant and rave about teams not deserving to go, but I wouldn't be where I am right now without that opportunity.

Videos removed to save space.

I'm genuinely curious: do you feel, as a gym, that you are the exception or the rule? Do you think your goal (of having the drive to do well/better each year) is common for gyms of your size/skill level (even from 2010 to 2011)?

It seems the general conception here is that the difference between the small, medium, large, and mega gyms is the focus at/for/in pursuit of Worlds and a Worlds Title. That for some small gyms, it's 'Get to Worlds for the "experience" every year', but what they do with that "experience" as a gym is...well, I just don't know. DO they do anything with that 'experience' except use it as a marketing tool for new clients? Do the kids come back saying 'I want to do better next year', or as the idea seems to be here, 'Well that was a fun cheer-cation, yay Florida and my new tan, on to next season!'

Your gym sounds like the type that says 'We want to be the best we can at each level and be better every year.' I remember how proud everyone was of your accomplishments at that particular Worlds. The fire they came back with was exceptional- however, what I'm worried about (and what most people seem to be worried about), is that you are the exception. That creating this division will cave to the people who look at worlds as a fun vacation-y event that just happens to be about cheer. That might not be true, but that's the vibe I get. I'd have to seriously sit down and crunch numbers, watch videos, and review placements from the last 5 worlds or so (2007/8- 2013) and see where the divide is.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I haven't read through the entire thread but here are some points I would like to make.

*I WANT to compete against the best at Worlds. End of Story. Even if it means getting our butts kicked.

*In 2010 I took my team to Worlds (for the first time) on a At-Large Bid and we knew we wouldn't make it out of Prelims. We didnt have the drive or determination and unfortunately got our butts kicked.

*In 2011 I took a team to Worlds on a full paid bid and we made it all the way to finals (placing the highest in our States history). While many can say we didnt "deserve" to be there in 2010, the experienced help my kids learn what it was all about.

Last year we had rebuilding year (1 kid ever attended worlds before) and got an At-Large bid and making it past Prelims was NOT a goal. This year, same spot we were in 2011, we are aiming towards full paid and top 10.

You all can rant and rave about teams not deserving to go, but I wouldn't be where I am right now without that opportunity.

Edited Videos for Space.

Your gym did amazing and will again.

The problem is the same ones saying there are too many teams at Worlds are the same ones saying that you and your program did not deserve that first opportunity to get the experience. They are the same ones begging for an event like CL or the Majors but only if it includes their favorite non top 10 team too. Like you I believe the experience of going to Worlds does a program some good. If your gym/my gym/any gym is better for the experience then I am so sorry to all those that complained that you had to sit through those routines while waiting to see your favorites.

The problem is I do not believe that small gyms approached USASF/Varsity and asked for this. If so who are they? Because we tend to make the small gym the excuse/scapegoat reason for everything we don't like from changing the tumbling rules to the reason to go to larger gyms, to uniforms, to now this. If anything they approached some small gyms and asked them why they would not accept bids to Worlds. Or the looked at the bid comps and looked at the programs that declared they were not seeking a bid, no matter the reason.

The problem is IMHO that USASF/Varsity is losing out on smaller gyms chasing the dream of Worlds. Think of it more like MLM marketing. After awhile the people on the bottom get tired of feeding into something they know that there is nothing there for them. And I am not just talking about winning a medal or trophy. Because as I have said before there is a major difference in competing and being competitive.

They are trying to figure a way to restructure to get that push/drive back into going for Worlds again for the small and not as famous type gyms. The more that chase the dream of going to Words the more $$$ is made. So they need to draw back into the mix the gyms that can't afford to scholarship the entire Level 5 team. The gyms that can't send out a twitter announcement seeking people and get boatloads of replies from athletes across the country whose dream is to cheer at _________ gym. It is about money people, not the sport of cheer. Every sporting analogy, every David vs Goliath type challenge is great and laudable except that is NOT WHAT IS DRIVING this potential decision. It is money. If they do nothing, with the way gyms are merging, closing, looking for other competitive options, after awhile Worlds won't exist because there won't be money to pay for it or make it profitable enough to be held.

 

[Aussiekat]

@Rudags I totally agree with the difference a year can make and the importance of going to worlds to understand what it takes…

My team placed 4th at worlds in 2013, the highest ever placing of a team from our area. It was made up of majority vets who had been to worlds at least once and we pushed the new kids to our level. Now I'm on a team who wants to get a bid and I'm the only one who has been to worlds. Ever. The drive and atmosphere is entirely different. The willingness to go the extra mile, even now, is absent. By the time you get to worlds and you see how well teams just MARK routines on the football field, it's too late to say "I wish I had…" but SEEING it makes you take home a new determination to pay attention and put effort into the small stuff.

So no, I don't think reducing the number of bids is a good idea for growing the sport. I think having those kids who come last in small senior seeing an entire weekend of the best of the best is a humbling and motivating experience. DI and DII is something I'm not sure of… I feel it would not work if you can make exceptions to move from DII to DI. HPU and SFA dominated their NCA divisions for years and no one suggested moving them to compete against Louisville and OSU…