All-Star D1 / D2 Debate

BlueCat · Jan 19, 2018

Keep_Believing said:
What are the proposed new rules for D1 & D2?

This has been extremely contentious on other forums. It has been debated at length. Full disclosure - we are D1 with multiple locations.

Short version -

Gyms of any size are allowed to decide their own classification at start of season D1 or D2. Decision is for the entire program for a single season.

D2 has own divisions and is shielded from competing against D1 when numbers warrant at events. D2 not allowed to share athletes with another facility.

D1 is eligible for Worlds Bids.

(Edit: I tried to list pros and cons, but that is a long list that can be re-hashed if needed)

I threw out a different proposal from the USASF one on another forum that I thought was a little more D2-friendly, but it seemed to get even more pushback, so I guess I am seeing it wrong. Same as above but:

Enrollment cap of 175 for D2 (compared to none on USASF proposal - probably should be even lower)
Lower age minimums (wider age ranges) for D2
More crossovers allowed D2
Allow D2 Summit (or other events) to have "Worlds" divisions (Senior 5, etc)

Keep_Believing · Jan 19, 2018

Thanks for the info. Is there a new age grid being proposed for D1 and D2? If so, anyone willing to share it?

Mndl · Jan 19, 2018

BlueCat said:
This has been extremely contentious on other forums. It has been debated at length. Full disclosure - we are D1 with multiple locations.

Short version -

Gyms of any size are allowed to decide their own classification at start of season D1 or D2. Decision is for the entire program for a single season.

D2 has own divisions and is shielded from competing against D1 when numbers warrant at events. D2 not allowed to share athletes with another facility.

D1 is eligible for Worlds Bids.

(Edit: I tried to list pros and cons, but that is a long list that can be re-hashed if needed)

I threw out a different proposal from the USASF one on another forum that I thought was a little more D2-friendly, but it seemed to get even more pushback, so I guess I am seeing it wrong. Same as above but:

Enrollment cap of 175 for D2 (compared to none on USASF proposal - probably should be even lower)
Lower age minimums (wider age ranges) for D2
More crossovers allowed D2
Allow D2 Summit (or other events) to have "Worlds" divisions (Senior 5, etc)

So if the gym decides to go D2 it isn't eligible for Worlds Bids?

BlueCat · Jan 20, 2018

Mndl said:
So if the gym decides to go D2 it isn't eligible for Worlds Bids?

That was the USASF proposal. The overall concept was to shift the D2/D1 designation from enrollment to level of competitiveness. One side views the Worlds part as creating an incentive to go D1, the other views it as taking away one of their options. It is a point of strong contention.

Keep_Believing · Jan 20, 2018

Would the XSmall divisions disappear or now be open to all gyms who choose D1?

BlueCat · Jan 20, 2018

Keep_Believing said:
Would the XSmall divisions disappear or now be open to all gyms who choose D1?

That wasn't a part of the proposal, I don't know. My guess is that they would stay, but not be restricted.

Megreg · Jan 20, 2018

BlueCat said:
That was the USASF proposal. The overall concept was to shift the D2/D1 designation from enrollment to level of competitiveness. One side views the Worlds part as creating an incentive to go D1, the other views it as taking away one of their options. It is a point of strong contention.

As a Parent POV and from a demographic region where every gym that fields a Worlds Level 5 team could technically be D2 based on the numbers in the gym; except 1 because of the franchise rule. Most if not all of these gyms have always competed D1 for all of their teams regardless of falling into the numbers rule until this season. These gyms have won Summit Titles multiple times or placed in the top 3 as well as received Paid Bids to Worlds and have globed at Worlds as well. I can assure you if the Level 5 teams could not compete at Worlds and were forced to compete at D2 Summit for level 5, those athletes and parents would either all congregate to one gym to be D1 eligible or quit AllStar. For parents who have spent THOUSANDS of dollars for multiple years of AllStar Cheerleading and watch their child grow and have the skills to be a Worlds Athlete be told they are not allowed to compete at Worlds, would not only be a slap in the face but it would not be something I would pay for. Not to mention the impact this would have on the kids. I'm supposed to tell my daughter who competed at Worlds last year, will compete this year that I'm sorry, You can't compete at Worlds anymore because no gym in our area is technically D1 If gyms are allowed to choose D1/D2 regardless of numbers then what really changes? Those gyms will still field their level 5 teams (if they can) and still compete for Worlds Bids and possibly have their lower level teams compete D2. Its disturbing that the industry has a negative opinion of gyms who classify as D2 as not to their level and looked down upon. Only 1 of the 6 Worlds teams in our demographic area is XS by the way, but again all of the gyms that field these teams are all technically D2 based on numbers.

Keep_Believing · Jan 20, 2018

From what I understand, with this proposal you could choose to go D1.

Lablover · Jan 20, 2018

Megreg said:
As a Parent POV and from a demographic region where every gym that fields a Worlds Level 5 team could technically be D2 based on the numbers in the gym; except 1 because of the franchise rule. Most if not all of these gyms have always competed D1 for all of their teams regardless of falling into the numbers rule until this season. These gyms have won Summit Titles multiple times or placed in the top 3 as well as received Paid Bids to Worlds and have globed at Worlds as well. I can assure you if the Level 5 teams could not compete at Worlds and were forced to compete at D2 Summit for level 5, those athletes and parents would either all congregate to one gym to be D1 eligible or quit AllStar. For parents who have spent THOUSANDS of dollars for multiple years of AllStar Cheerleading and watch their child grow and have the skills to be a Worlds Athlete be told they are not allowed to compete at Worlds, would not only be a slap in the face but it would not be something I would pay for. Not to mention the impact this would have on the kids. I'm supposed to tell my daughter who competed at Worlds last year, will compete this year that I'm sorry, You can't compete at Worlds anymore because no gym in our area is technically D1 If gyms are allowed to choose D1/D2 regardless of numbers then what really changes? Those gyms will still field their level 5 teams (if they can) and still compete for Worlds Bids and possibly have their lower level teams compete D2. Its disturbing that the industry has a negative opinion of gyms who classify as D2 as not to their level and looked down upon. Only 1 of the 6 Worlds teams in our demographic area is XS by the way, but again all of the gyms that field these teams are all technically D2 based on numbers.

Couldn’t those gyms just opt to go D1? The way I’m reading the discussion is that you can self select to compete d1 regardless of enrollment size. You just have to adhere to the D1 rules pertaining to crossovers, sharing athletes, etc

CLynn · Jan 20, 2018

Lablover said:
Couldn’t those gyms just opt to go D1? The way I’m reading the discussion is that you can self select to compete d1 regardless of enrollment size. You just have to adhere to the D1 rules pertaining to crossovers, sharing athletes, etc

It would seem to me yes but should Worlds be used as the carrot? And while I agree it is a strong motivator for many athletes, what % of children who ever enter the gym end up on a Worlds team? Should a gym declare D1 for the sake of Worlds and sacrifice the rest of their program? Should they have to? And would that make the parents on non-worlds athletes happy? On the other hand, it wouldn't bother me to see level 5 at D2 Summit. I would also love to see smaller age brackets though if that can be worked in somehow.

Lablover · Jan 20, 2018

CLynn said:
It would seem to me yes but should Worlds be used as the carrot? And while I agree it is a strong motivator for many athletes, what % of children who ever enter the gym end up on a Worlds team? Should a gym declare D1 for the sake of Worlds and sacrifice the rest of their program? Should they have to? And would that make the parents on non-worlds athletes happy? On the other hand, it wouldn't bother me to see level 5 at D2 Summit. I would also love to see smaller age brackets though if that can be worked in somehow.

But in the example listed above the poster said the gym(s) competed and won and/or placed at summit multiple times. So I would think it would be a non issue , all levels at the gym are able to compete at the D1 level so those gyms would elect to compete D1 regardless of their enrollment numbers.

CLynn · Jan 20, 2018

Lablover said:
But in the example listed above the poster said the gym(s) competed and won and/or placed at summit multiple times.

Yes, true. Sorry I should have been more clear in that I was not replying to that specific scenario but the concept more broadly.

Megreg · Jan 20, 2018

CLynn said:
It would seem to me yes but should Worlds be used as the carrot? And while I agree it is a strong motivator for many athletes, what % of children who ever enter the gym end up on a Worlds team? Should a gym declare D1 for the sake of Worlds and sacrifice the rest of their program? Should they have to? And would that make the parents on non-worlds athletes happy? On the other hand, it wouldn't bother me to see level 5 at D2 Summit. I would also love to see smaller age brackets though if that can be worked in somehow.

In smaller gyms, the % is very high, lots of these kids have grown up in AllStar and in smaller programs, competed at lower levels very successfully allowing them to enhance their skills and be able to compete on Worlds teams. The parents on lower levels typically support the Workds athletes and vice versa, smaller gyms are very family oriented. Keep in mind, they have choices and can go elsewhere if they are unhappy. And there is already Level 5 at Both Summit & D2, it’s restricted. Worlds Teams should compete at Worlds regardless of the gym size. Small gyms advertise they have a Worlds Team to attract athletes, if they can’t do that - they very well could go out of business very fast because any AllStar athlete who wants to be on a Worlds Team will flock to another gym who has one. Most parents don’t want to gym hop, so they will start with the one that has the potential for Worlds.

CLynn · Jan 20, 2018

Megreg said:
Worlds Teams should compete at Worlds regardless of the gym size.

Gotcha. So you are not in favor of the proposal.

Megreg said:
The parents on lower levels typically support the Workds athletes and vice versa, smaller gyms are very family oriented.

Glad your gym is close knit, I know it was not that way at our first small gym so can't really generalize. At that time we attended some competitions that only provided either Summit or Worlds bids (but not both at the same competition) and boy did the parents complain about it, favoritism etc.

Megreg · Jan 20, 2018

CLynn said:
Gotcha. So you are not in favor of the proposal.

Glad your gym is close knit, I know it was not that way at our first small gym so can't really generalize. At that time we attended some competitions that only provided either Summit or Worlds bids (but not both at the same competition) and boy did the parents complain about it, favoritism etc.

We have always competed as D1 even though we fall under 125 athletes, but the families do typically support all the teams. No, I’m not in favor of a proposal that would require Gyms that declare D2 ( if they get to choose) to have a Worlds L5 Team compete at the D2 Summit, however I really don’t think many gyms would declare themselves D2 if they have a Worlds Team, which essentially is going to move everyone back to D1 unless the gym is no where near being able to field a Worlds team. Just my opinion though.

All-Star D1 / D2 Debate

Welcome to our Cheerleading Community

Members see FEWER ads... join today!

BlueCat

Roses are red, cats are blue

Keep_Believing

Mndl

BlueCat

Roses are red, cats are blue

Keep_Believing

BlueCat

Roses are red, cats are blue

Megreg

Keep_Believing

Lablover

CLynn

Lablover

CLynn

Megreg

CLynn

Megreg

Who is excited for UCA College Nationals?

Daughter just got taken out of flyer spot

The death of the Large Divisions

Strong starts

Similar threads

Latest posts