All-Star New Basket Rules For College Cheer Are Making A Lot Of People Angry...

Am I correct in stating that the most difficult/highest scoring basket for an all-girl team would be a non-inverted kick double? Pike open is two skills vs. kick double counting as three.

Additionally, what happens to teams with 3-4 male athletes on a coed team? They'd be able to only throw one basket at the elite level/high scoring range? (i.e. full/double fulls?) The score sheet will be very interesting. I'm really not a fan of this.

AndyT_T said:

Starting this season baskets in college that involve flipping will only be allowed to twist if they’re being thrown by men. Three men to be exact, two male bases and one male back spot. A lot of the women I used to cheer with are obviously very angry about this.

Thoughts?

2018-19 AACCA College Cheerleading Rules – Cheer Rules – Cheerleading Rules for Coaches

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Yeah that’s...super sexist.

oncecoolcoachnowmom said:

Men's and women's lax are totally different games? I'm intrigued! How? (Not that I understand lax, but isn't it similar to field hockey/soccer?)

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Two of my boys play/played lacrosse so when CP wanted to play a couple of years ago I said sure. It was the most painfully dull 2 months for both of us, it's basically a total non-contact sport for girls until maybe high school, you can't even stick check. After watching and enjoying the boys game for years it was like watching paint dry. I assume it must get more interesting by the high school level but yeah, totally different style of game.

Mndl said:

Two of my boys play/played lacrosse so when CP wanted to play a couple of years ago I said sure. It was the most painfully dull 2 months for both of us, it's basically a total non-contact sport for girls until maybe high school, you can't even stick check. After watching and enjoying the boys game for years it was like watching paint dry. I assume it must get more interesting by the high school level but yeah, totally different style of game.

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Wait, you mean that I cannot elbow girls in the face like Mean Girls suggests

@TealShades Roller Derby LOL

OldskoolKYcheercoach said:

Yes, but there’s a difference in the risk of a skill that has hands on feet, versus one that is free flying.

As to the multiple comments about acro....

To quite Lt JG Daniel Caffey: “it doesn’t matter what I THINK, it only matters what I can PROVE.” (Bonus points for naming that movie)

If there’s some statistical evidence that supports this change, that’s all that matters. No ones feelings about sexism, what is done in other activities, etc matter beyond any degree of trending evidence from accident reports.

This is all speculation anyway, no one really knows WHY the rules were changed except the people who change them.

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Then where is the proof though? Where is the research? The ER visits? The stats? The media coverage? Where is any sign that there was any legitimate evidence for this change other than anecdotal?
Because without that evidence the only evidence I have is the 40+ years of all girl teams successfully throwing twisting baskets.

The reason they listed wasn’t for safety, it was because teams spent too much time focusing on baskets when the focus of the team, in their mind, should be on sideline Cheer.

Honestly, if the rule had been “Twisting baskets either need two boys throwing or they need 4 throwers” I wouldn’t be mad. That front can speed up the toes and get the flyer through faster.
Hell if the rule said that AG groups can only do single spinning baskets I wouldn’t be mad, at least ball X fulls and other two trick baskets would be allowed.

As it stands the rules expect the teams to be able to pull fulls on dead mat but not on baskets, which gives them even more height. As long as running fulls are allowed banning full twisting baskets is ridiculous.

I still think that the answer to all of this would be to start rewarding front baskets more instead of banning twisting. Every sketchy basket I’ve ever seen came from the flyers feet not getting through in time during a back twisting basket.

Front twisting baskets are a million times safer. No matter what happens in them they always land in a deadly and because of that they are always an easy catch.

Plus they’re so easy to teach: you teach a front flip dismount, then a front flip basket with the back on ankles, then a front flip basket with the back underneath, then you start twisting them.
No matter how much or how little you flip they always land horizontally in a cradle and they are always easy to catch.

Sorry to triple post, but I forgot to mention that coed baskets thrown by three boys will now only be allowed to do one twist.

That’s means ball X fulls are now the most elite basket skill that can be done for any team.

AndyT_T said:

Then where is the proof though? Where is the research? The ER visits? The stats? The media coverage? Where is any sign that there was any legitimate evidence for this change other than anecdotal?
Because without that evidence the only evidence I have is the 40+ years of all girl teams successfully throwing twisting baskets.

The reason they listed wasn’t for safety, it was because teams spent too much time focusing on baskets when the focus of the team, in their mind, should be on sideline Cheer.

Honestly, if the rule had been “Twisting baskets either need two boys throwing or they need 4 throwers” I wouldn’t be mad. That front can speed up the toes and get the flyer through faster.
Hell if the rule said that AG groups can only do single spinning baskets I wouldn’t be mad, at least ball X fulls and other two trick baskets would be allowed.

As it stands the rules expect the teams to be able to pull fulls on dead mat but not on baskets, which gives them even more height. As long as running fulls are allowed banning full twisting baskets is ridiculous.

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Where is the evidence? I am thinking that in one of our previous debates, you mentioned that you are a nurse. If so, I know you have filled out your share of incident reports. I average one per shift in my nursing career. I can't be the only coach who is responsible for doing this in my coaching capacity. I fill out a report every time I put ice on an ankle. Those reports don't just go to our athletic office. They are entered into a system and tracked through the NFHS. I feel certain the NCAA/NAIA/etc has a similar tracking system. Failure to fill out the incident report could nullify your insurance coverage.

The rules committee doesn't create rules based on what the best of the best can perform. Rules are created to prevent injury. Regardless of what your experience has been with 10 years in all stars and 4 years in college cheer, there is trending information on these reports to indicate a need for a change. Obviously that information would indicate that in cheerleading, not acro, not other activities, there is evidence to support more stringent restrictions when females are tossing versus males. This is likely due to all of the reasons mentioned here previously. No matter how you look at it, males are typically stronger than females, and the extra height allows for completion of the skill in question more easily. There will likely be more changes next year that begin to streamline the two, but for now this is what we have to deal with.

Public institutions have a much lower tolerance for risk and bad publicity than private all star companies. Duke University had an athlete suffer an injury before I was even in high school. They haven't allowed a stunt since. The entire state of Nebraska went ground bound after the University of Nebraska went ground bound following an injury in a tumbling pass. The NCAA banned 2 1/2 high pyramids on hardwood following the broken vertebrae suffered from one fall off a 2 1/2 high pyramid during a game at Southern Illinois University. The AACCA followed suit shortly thereafter. I'm not even sure that Oregon State had a kid suffer a catastrophic injury, but they went ground bound about 10 years ago just because of risk and the amount of time athletes were spending in the trainer's office. Every catastrophic injury that brings negative publicity to our favorite activity increases the possibility that insurance companies are going to say "to hell with this," and write us off, or make our premiums such that no one can afford to pay them any longer. When that happens all of our beloved skills will go by the wayside.

I wonder how this will affect future rules for baskets for Team USA? If/when Cheer enters the Olympics I wonder what their basket rules will be. Everything seems to be connected and have a domino effect.

OldskoolKYcheercoach said:

In my opinion, kids should not be allowed to perform or practice any skill that they are not cognitively and physically capable of spotting for themselves. Any extra spotters standing around at practice should be reserved for the extra-tragic, outside-of-normal-business-operations attempt. Too many kids are learning to rely almost exclusively on these extra spotters for catching purposes at the expense of learning to do things safely.

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^^^^ THIS ^^^^ and I think we can also add that IF THE FLYER CAN NOT PULL AND HOLD A BODY POSITION ON THE GROUND THEY SHOULD NOT BE IN THE AIR YET. Bases are getting taken out while learning a stunt because of bad flyer technique. J.S.

OldskoolKYcheercoach said:

Where is the evidence? I am thinking that in one of our previous debates, you mentioned that you are a nurse. If so, I know you have filled out your share of incident reports. I average one per shift in my nursing career. I can't be the only coach who is responsible for doing this in my coaching capacity. I fill out a report every time I put ice on an ankle. Those reports don't just go to our athletic office. They are entered into a system and tracked through the NFHS. I feel certain the NCAA/NAIA/etc has a similar tracking system. Failure to fill out the incident report could nullify your insurance coverage.

The rules committee doesn't create rules based on what the best of the best can perform. Rules are created to prevent injury. Regardless of what your experience has been with 10 years in all stars and 4 years in college cheer, there is trending information on these reports to indicate a need for a change. Obviously that information would indicate that in cheerleading, not acro, not other activities, there is evidence to support more stringent restrictions when females are tossing versus males. This is likely due to all of the reasons mentioned here previously. No matter how you look at it, males are typically stronger than females, and the extra height allows for completion of the skill in question more easily. There will likely be more changes next year that begin to streamline the two, but for now this is what we have to deal with.

Public institutions have a much lower tolerance for risk and bad publicity than private all star companies. Duke University had an athlete suffer an injury before I was even in high school. They haven't allowed a stunt since. The entire state of Nebraska went ground bound after the University of Nebraska went ground bound following an injury in a tumbling pass. The NCAA banned 2 1/2 high pyramids on hardwood following the broken vertebrae suffered from one fall off a 2 1/2 high pyramid during a game at Southern Illinois University. The AACCA followed suit shortly thereafter. I'm not even sure that Oregon State had a kid suffer a catastrophic injury, but they went ground bound about 10 years ago just because of risk and the amount of time athletes were spending in the trainer's office. Every catastrophic injury that brings negative publicity to our favorite activity increases the possibility that insurance companies are going to say "to hell with this," and write us off, or make our premiums such that no one can afford to pay them any longer. When that happens all of our beloved skills will go by the wayside.

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Ive never reported my own injuries or my athletes, the procedures have never been there for us to utilize in my 14 years of cheer in 3 states. Just adding to the convo that a lot a lot alot of data goes missing, or is incomplete/incorrect.

Keep_Believing said:

I wonder how this will affect future rules for baskets for Team USA? If/when Cheer enters the Olympics I wonder what their basket rules will be. Everything seems to be connected and have a domino effect.

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This helps level the playing field for college teams which over time will probs do the same for international, which is def the goal: more participation and competition.

ScottyB said:

Ive never reported my own injuries or my athletes, the procedures have never been there for us to utilize in my 14 years of cheer in 3 states. Just adding to the convo that a lot a lot alot of data goes missing, or is incomplete/incorrect.

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I’m dumbfounded that this isn’t a universal process. It’s basic business practice. Anything that could come back to haunt you should be documented thoroughly. In today’s litigious society, that would mean anything. I’ve never been out of Kentucky, but the reports have been a consistency in four different high schools over my years.

I’m 3 years into retirement and came back on here just to talk about this rule. I’m honestly shocked by the amount of support of this rule from this board of all places. This rule encourages so many negative stereotypes about cheerleading. It encourages coaches to take the smaller females and the larger males instead of a more diverse team of men/women of different sizes. My last year cheering I was moved from all-girl to coed to do 2 things: tumble and throw baskets. I took a males spot because I was stronger than him and helped our baskets reach the same level as Louisville and OSU. If this rule would’ve been in place then I would’ve had no shot of competing on bandshell in D1A large coed which is one my favorite memories.

Growing up in cheerleading, I was self-conscious of my height, my muscle build, never having the opportunity to be a flyer... college cheerleading gave me a place and allowed me to develop a niche. I fear this is a slippery slope which will eventually eradicate a need for athletes like myself and the other women on my teams that were and are stronger than many males i’ve cheered with.

If safety is the issue, it must be all or nothing. You can’t compare cheerleading to other sports having different rules for genders because this is a coed sport where the men and women compete on the same mat. If women can’t do it, either should men.