All-Star How Low Can You Go To Win Gold At Worlds ?

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Well, I guess I have some explaining to do!

First off, I want to let you know that I am neither an athlete, nor an ex-cheerleader or a coach and not even close to being an expert, I am basically just a proud cheer dad that's been following this sport for the past 6 years, I've been to more or less 50 competitions, in the US and Canada, I've been through all the emotions, from coming close, to failing miserably, to winning it all, my daughter went through scolar to All Star teams, from level 2 to level 5 and even coached for a while...In all those years, I got to be a little better at judging from my seat or the fan zone at the events but aside from my predictions getting better and better with the times, I still am far far away from being an expert. So that's that for my cheer experience.

Now I must say that being a bit older, my background is also way different than most of you here...My area of expertise, in my time, was baseball, hockey...and bowling!

So my questioning of the rules comes directly from my own background. Never, in any way shape or form would you even think of changing divisions because of a poor start or even injuries, and certainly not to have a better chance at winning...You made your bed, you lied in it, you had a miserable season, learn from it and come back stronger the next year. And that may work for those sports, but if you over level a team because of their initial potential, the risk of injury trying to have a level 2 athlete do level 3 skills is high. I know this, because I've done it. I've looked at kids and viewed the potential, not the reality and had to adjust course once reality hit hard.

I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from, same as I understand the cheer world is a whole other ball game…

Another thing I want to make clear is that I don't mind teams changing levels or divisions yearly, In fact, not only do I don't care what level teams are from one year to another, I can't even remember what level they were when I get to see them! Too much categories for my little head if you ask me but that's a whole other question for a whole other time. The concept of too many divisions is subjective. If the goal in sport is inclusion of children for fun, athleticism and friendship, then we should have as many divisions as we can to include athletes. Maybe not all of them should be competitive, but I wouldn't want cheer to ever be in a place where Sally can't do cheer because shes not good enough.

Also, I know just enough to realize that level 6 and 5 are not that far away from each other and that often, level 5 is tougher and more competitive than 6.

As for the Viqueens Spirit from Norway, forget about what they did last year or the year before...It bugged me that they spent the whole season up to last week at level 6, and even if the video I've posted maybe wasn't their best effort this year, we can see they have skills...If they can hit those moves, they should, in my mind, hit level 5 NT moves pretty easily, again, maybe I'm wrong but I think I saw enough Level 5NT competition this season to have at least a little knowledge to back me up ;) But level 5 and 6 skills aren't even close to the same. Especially pyramids! I know level 6 teams that can hit rewinds like pros, but doing a double up to stretch is a struggle. We had an IO6 team that struggle bussed their way into 2019. Coaches made the choice prior to their bid event to add guys to their team and become IOSC6. The team is significantly stronger as a result. It was strategic for them, but I don't see the fun in allowing a team to flounder because people outside of the team or program may have an opinion about it (and people sure did have an opinion)

All in all, I still think it's sad that teams who've battled it out all year, compared themselves, tried to upgrade to level up and be competitive with each other, may not even get a chance to experience day 2 (There's also the INTL rules of 3 teams per country that's a problem here…) or a podium for a team that switched level in the last stretch, to be in the newest division, the one they have a better chance of dominating. That maybe does wonder for the siwtching down's team self esteem but what does it do for those who will get left out after giving it their all, all season long? Thats assuming the reasoning for a team switching divisions though. Frequently we just assume its to win without knowing circumstance. Maybe Viqueens had half their team unable to afford going to Florida, and athletes who could replace them couldn't perform at level 6, and they had to get another bid? Maybe they just want to crush 5.0? Maybe they hate tumbling and saw another viable option to attend? Who knows.

In a sport based largely on sportmanship, one that's trying to gain momentum and credibility, I personally think it's not the way to go about it...

So, now that we got that out of the way, let's go back to the subject at hand from another angle, I'll ask my question differently :

How much of a gap is acceptable as it pertains to levels/categories and a time frame for a team to switch ? After one month, 1 competition? 2? How close is too close to Worlds to switch? Should there be a limit or not? I don't think there should be a limit on when because circumstances change quickly and dramatically in cheer and not always do coaches or programs have the options to fill in with a viable athlete. At one point this year, I went down 4 athletes on a team of 14 and had to make dramatic changes, including changing level for one event in order to make it work.
Changing levels isn't as easy as anyone would think. It takes extensive work to change skills from one level to the next. If people want to switch the week before, and obtain a bid through approved channels, then they've earned the bid and they're entitled to do it.


Same with levels, you compete all year at IOAG6 or co-ed or Senior or whatever, what would be an acceptable « downgrade » DURING a season? Should there be rules to regulate this and prevent teams switching just to have a better shot at gold? Again, assuming why a team is changing divisions. I think IASF/USASF would be hard pressed to prove that a team switched divisions to have a better shot at winning and not because it's a logistical or personnel issue.

Maybe all is fine the way it is too, like I said earlier, it doesn't really matter to me beacause I don't hit the mat! My girl does and she and her team, this year or any other year or team before have always performed well under any circumstances so I don't fear any team coming her way...Be it a US, Canadian or any other country's team ;)

By the way, she doesn't know I'm over here talking cheer...My bet is she wouldn't like it so much, further more on this subject as she basically has the same opinion as you on the matter, after all, it's her sport and she knows the rules that apply, I am the one who's questioning the rules, and no, I don't do it in front of her, I just ask questions, she answers, I oblige and move on.

Hey, I think I answered most of the questions and then some didn't I ? So I'll leave it at that!

Again, thanks for your time and your informative answers, much appreciated :)

I hope my bold answers above aren't combative, because they're not meant to be at all. I've been on this board for a lot of years and more often than not, people assume that teams change divisions as some ploy to win, when in reality, who knows.
 
I dont agree that the sport is largely based on good sportsmanship or loyalty to a division. Parents/athletes are paying so much money to do the sport. And when given the chance within the rules I cant see why a team wouldnt try to better their chances of winning whether thats dropping a level or changing to an easier or less crowded division.. While i dont agree with it, to dumb down a team for a possibly easier win, but it is what it is.
 
I actually think Viqueens has a better chance to globe in AG6 rather than level 5. People have long complained about top 3 from each country moving to finals, but those have been the rules for quite a few years now. There is some pretty talented level 6 large coed teams from USA that don’t make it to finals every year and some sketchy teams that do, the USA teams are outscoring these teams by at least 10 points. I’m always amazed how these athletes dust themselves off and come back year after year hungry to make top 3. Part of me gets the rule, I get that if you want to claim to be a World Champion you have to beat other countries but sometimes it doesn’t feel fair. I don’t think there should be any rules against changing divisions, I’m sure Viqueens have a reason for changing divisions.
 
Now I must say that being a bit older, my background is also way different than most of you here...My area of expertise, in my time, was baseball, hockey...and bowling!

So my questioning of the rules comes directly from my own background. Never, in any way shape or form would you even think of changing divisions because of a poor start or even injuries, and certainly not to have a better chance at winning...You made your bed, you lied in it, you had a miserable season, learn from it and come back stronger the next year.

I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from, same as I understand the cheer world is a whole other ball game…

I understand where you're coming from. I think cheer, like you said, is a whole different ball game and it makes it difficult to compare it to those sports. The sports you have backgrounds in, though they are team sports, don't use a "team" like cheer does. Every person has a role in a routine and it's exceptionally hard to switch people in and out when something happens, especially at the higher levels. Cheer doesn't have a bench like baseball and hockey. Cheer teams are not as flexible as most other team sports. Need a replacement? Are you a small gym? High caliber team? Short notice? You're gonna have some difficulty finding an adequate replacement.


Another thing I want to make clear is that I don't mind teams changing levels or divisions yearly, In fact, not only do I don't care what level teams are from one year to another, I can't even remember what level they were when I get to see them! Too much categories for my little head if you ask me but that's a whole other question for a whole other time.

Also, I know just enough to realize that level 6 and 5 are not that far away from each other and that often, level 5 is tougher and more competitive than 6.

As for the Viqueens Spirit from Norway, forget about what they did last year or the year before...It bugged me that they spent the whole season up to last week at level 6, and even if the video I've posted maybe wasn't their best effort this year, we can see they have skills...If they can hit those moves, they should, in my mind, hit level 5 NT moves pretty easily, again, maybe I'm wrong but I think I saw enough Level 5NT competition this season to have at least a little knowledge to back me up ;)


All in all, I still think it's sad that teams who've battled it out all year, compared themselves, tried to upgrade to level up and be competitive with each other, may not even get a chance to experience day 2 (There's also the INTL rules of 3 teams per country that's a problem here…) or a podium for a team that switched level in the last stretch, to be in the newest division, the one they have a better chance of dominating. That maybe does wonder for the switching down's team self esteem but what does it do for those who will get left out after giving it their all, all season long?

I think someone stated previously that 2 of Viqueens flyers were not old enough for the L6 division (17 & up) but were old enough to compete in L5 (14 & up). If that was the reason for the change, is it fair to remove them from the team so they stay in L6? If they've been on that team all season and put the work in, is it ok to kick two athletes off to spare the feelings of the other teams? European cheer, from what I understand, operates on different age grids and different schedules for seasons than the US and Canada does. They have to adapt to our rules when they come to Worlds. In adapting to our rules to compete with us, shouldn't they be allowed to change divisions to what fits best for their teams? L5 was the only level they could've competed in with their current team.

As for the other teams who now have another team to compete against, you're not the best until you compete against the best. I disagree that L5 is a step down from L6. L6 is not a progression from L5; mastery of L6 does not equate to mastery of L5. All these teams can perform the same set of skills. All teams have an equal chance to win. Just because Viqueens competed L6 doesn't mean they will win. They had a lot of trouble hitting some of their lower level stunts on that video. And they will need to learn all new stunts. They're going into Worlds with a new routine while other teams have had all season to polish theirs. They have a lot of work ahead of them to even hit their routine, let alone make it to day 2.
 
I hear everyone’s points about things happening last minute and there being many possible reasons for a change of division. However, what I haven’t seen is a good explanation for why they chose NT?? If the move was because of age restrictions why the need to go to a non tumbling level? That, IMO, is what looks shady about this


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I don’t buy the age thing. They’ve been competing AG6 for YEARS. Did they all of a sudden forget the age requirements? Highly doubt it.
 
don't international teams technically get their bids on a different schedule too?

Quoting myself because no one has actually answered, and this could be totally legit reasoning--aren't international teams on a different schedule, meaning they got their bid for worlds 2019 before NT was a division? Can they still get a NT bid for 2019 or if they get it is it for 2020 already?

or have they changed the international schedule oddities and I just don't know it.
 
I don’t buy the age thing. They’ve been competing AG6 for YEARS. Did they all of a sudden forget the age requirements? Highly doubt it.
Hey! I saw your post and wanted to share some information you might be interested in. Most of Viqueens Spirit's competitions are governed by different rules--they compete in the European Cheer Union, which has different age requirements. A big and important competition for them is the European Championships. Their flyers are old enough to compete on Level 6 at the European Championships, but NOT old enough to compete on Level 6 at IASF Worlds. If you go to their instagram @Viqueens_Spirit and look at their saved stories under the category 2018/2019 you can see archived stories that explain this. So it does make sense to me that they picked flyers who could compete at *nearly* all of their events, including the European Championships, which seems to me like a big deal competition for a European team.

They've known their youngest flyer was 15 years old for 32 weeks (if you go to their instagram and check stories archived under the Q&A 2018/19 category they posted this information 32 weeks ago) so it doesn't seem like a very sudden change to me. I do not think they have competed at an IASF Level 6 event in the 2018 - 2019 season. They have competed Level 6 in a European Cheer Union event during this season, but they're currently not allowed to compete IASF Level 6.

I'm just a fan (friend's daughter is an adorable mini cheerleader in the Northeast USA!) but I think all this shows how having many sets of rules and different cheer governing bodies is very confusing. I really hope there's more international standardization of rules (and that cheer becomes an Olympic sport!)
 
I don’t buy the age thing. They’ve been competing AG6 for YEARS. Did they all of a sudden forget the age requirements? Highly doubt it.

ETA: @caffeineandglitter beat me to it while i was typing this out.

Except the main governing body that they compete under for most comps is the European Cheer Union, whose divisions and age grids are different than IASF's. Here is their 2019 rulebook. Pages 6 and 8 are the pages of interest for division and age grids.
  • Highest IASF age group is Open (17 & Older) / Highest ECU age group is Senior (15 & Older for L6)
  • IASF Level 6 is only open to Open teams/ ECU Level 6 is open to Senior teams
Therefore, 15 year olds can compete L6 in ECU but not IASF. Worlds is IASF governed, not ECU governed. This year, they have two athletes who aren't old enough to compete in IASF Open. In previous years, apparently all their athletes were 17+. I highly doubt Viqueens, or any European teams really, make their teams according to IASF age grids when they only compete at an IASF governed event once in the whole year.

This whole thing is not a Viqueens-want-an-easy-win situation. It's a Viqueens-don't-fit-into-the-IASF-age-grid-as-easily-as-they-were-able-to-in-previous-years-because-cheer-doesn't-have-one-international-governing-body situation.


I hear everyone’s points about things happening last minute and there being many possible reasons for a change of division. However, what I haven’t seen is a good explanation for why they chose NT?? If the move was because of age restrictions why the need to go to a non tumbling level? That, IMO, is what looks shady about this

ECU doesn't offer NT levels. This is the first year NT is offered in IASF. They fit better in NT than tumbling divisions. I don't see the need to offer any better reason than "because that's where they're the most competitive" when almost every single team enters the division where they will be the most competitive and teams are formed to be the most competitive.

ETA: I think the NT division will see more International teams enter as years go on. European teams not having the tumbling that's needed to be competitive against US teams has always been a complaint. You could argue it's one of the reasons why the 3 per country rule was implemented. Now there's a division where European teams can compete on a more level playing ground with US teams. Is this a good bridge between International teams and US teams? I guess we will see.
 
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ETA: @caffeineandglitter beat me to it while i was typing this out.

Except the main governing body that they compete under for most comps is the European Cheer Union, who's divisions and age grids are different than IASF's. Here is their 2019 rulebook. Pages 6 and 8 are the pages of interest for division and age grids.
  • Highest IASF age group is Open (17 & Older) / Highest ECU age group is Senior (15 & Older for L6)
  • IASF Level 6 is only open to Open teams/ ECU Level 6 is open to Senior teams
Therefore, 15 year olds can compete L6 in ECU but not IASF. Worlds is IASF governed, not ECU governed. This year, they have two athletes who aren't old enough to compete in IASF Open. In previous years, apparently all their athletes were 17+. I highly doubt Viqueens, or any European teams really, make their teams according to IASF age grids when they only compete at an IASF governed event once in the whole year.

This whole thing is not a Viqueens-want-an-easy-win situation. It's a Viqueens-don't-fit-into-the-IASF-age-grid-as-easily-as-they-were-able-to-in-previous-years-because-cheer-doesn't-have-one-international-governing-body situation.




ECU doesn't offer NT levels. This is the first year NT is offered in IASF. They fit better in NT than tumbling divisions. I don't see the need to offer any better reason than "because that's where they're the most competitive" when almost every single team enters the division where they will be the most competitive and teams are formed to be the most competitive.

ETA: I think the NT division will see more International teams enter as years go on. European teams not having the tumbling that's needed to be competitive against US teams has always been a complaint. You could argue it's one of the reasons why the 3 per country rule was implemented. Now there's a division where European teams can compete on a more level playing ground with US teams. Is this a good bridge between International teams and US teams? I guess we will see.
I just don’t get why it’s all of a sudden a problem this year only. Unless that was their plan all year to compete non tumbling, but their Instagram doesn’t make it appear that way. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

I don’t think it’s an “easy win” situation. Just a disappointed fan wanting to see all girl rewind full ups :(
 
I would LOVE to see NT at level 6, just for the entertainment value. Here in Canada we have some amazing level 6 teams - their stunts are literally jaw-dropping.
I actually think NT should be level 6 only so Viqueens are in the perfect division in opinion. Also OP stated that IAG6 is one of the biggest divisions [emoji848] not sure what country he/she is referring to being the biggest division but definitely not in the USA, I think last year there was only 4 USA teams in that division maybe even less. It sounds to me like someone is salty that Viqueens is coming their way.


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I don't know when they got their bid, but I think bids (maybe it's competitions outside the US only?) can be deferred to the next season if the competition is 'too close' to the worlds dates.

In the UK our bids always work a year ahead, so competitions in the 2018-2019 season give out bids to the 2020 Worlds/Summit. Otherwise it isn't enough time to save/plan for a trip to Worlds. Our season also runs until mid-summer rather than Worlds/Summit being the final competitions.
 
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