All-Star More Injuries... Are We To Blame

And in America that's called consumer choice. I would not design a "hoochie" uniform for gym but I have no right to look at the gym down the street and say anything.
We are all missing the point on this one it's not the uniform that is for parents to decide with thier $$$ the USASF and self righteous individuals are now saying thier standard is better than someone else's. That is arrogant, discrimatory, and should not be allowed

You really think a couple weeks of certification each year would make someone eligible to coach level 5? If they've never done it? I don't. You can't give a month of certification classes (I think it should be a combination with shadowing) to get to be a L1 coach and then just do the same thing and get to be a L5 coach if you do that class instead. I don't think it should work that way. Then the issue becomes something different. The more restrictions that are placed on certifying coaches means there will be less coaches available which may lead to less gyms/teams. People who aren't serious about the sport aren't going to want to jump through hoops, which is fine with me, but will impact the sport for the better and worse.
IA with previous posters and their idea of progression with coaches as well, but there may need to be some sort of grandfathering clause for current coaches operating a safe program. I'm not sure how that would work though.

The idea of different deductions isn't too bad in theory, but they're such a hot-button issue all the time I can only imagine the storm that would erupt if they decide to change them to incorporate harsher penalties and some major team would lose because of it or because of something deemed "unfair." I think cheerleading would benefit from more black and white areas in the world of deductions, not gray areas, and "good" technique would definitely be different to each person watching.

I think it comes from coaches progressing their kids to fast. I recently switched tumbling coaches, and I realized how messed up my BHS was, and that it was messing up all of my other tumbling to. I then had to go back and fix my BHS, and it made my other skills easier. We NEED more qualified coaches.

ohkcheery said:

You really think a couple weeks of certification each year would make someone eligible to coach level 5? If they've never done it? I don't. You can't give a month of certification classes (I think it should be a combination with shadowing) to get to be a L1 coach and then just do the same thing and get to be a L5 coach if you do that class instead. I don't think it should work that way. Then the issue becomes something different. The more restrictions that are placed on certifying coaches means there will be less coaches available which may lead to less gyms/teams. People who aren't serious about the sport aren't going to want to jump through hoops, which is fine with me, but will impact the sport for the better and worse.
IA with previous posters and their idea of progression with coaches as well, but there may need to be some sort of grandfathering clause for current coaches operating a safe program. I'm not sure how that would work though.

The idea of different deductions isn't too bad in theory, but they're such a hot-button issue all the time I can only imagine the storm that would erupt if they decide to change them to incorporate harsher penalties and some major team would lose because of it or because of something deemed "unfair." I think cheerleading would benefit from more black and white areas in the world of deductions, not gray areas, and "good" technique would definitely be different to each person watching.

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The couple weeks of certification I was referring to was to correct current level 5 coaches' coaching technique. I should have specified.

Other requirements and prerequisites would need to be put in place to build new coaches' technique. Of course this would require a system that could record what coaches are certified, and on what level, restricting them from coaching higher level teams until they have reached the level of certification. Maybe a coach evaluation system, and then courses building on their knowledge from what they are already qualified to teach.

Mind you, more athletes learning proper technique step by step would provide more qualified starting points for these athletes who are going to be pursuing the coaching career. How many coaches do you know who haven't at one point in time competed in the sport that they are coaching?

Philly Pherocious said:

Placing harsher technique deductions would keep the coaches from putting the "jank" tumbling into a routine, until they have learned proper technique. There would be a drop in tumbling difficulty in routines next year, but it would slowly build back up as more and more athletes learn proper technique... Eventually leading to everything being thrown now, but it would be safer and in my opinion much prettier. Then instead of governing organization A(USASF currently) restricting difficult skills, more difficult skills would be allowed.

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I wish I could shimmy this all day long. Ultimately we are driven by the desire for our teams to win. If there were harsher penalties for improper tumbling techniques then coaches would be less likely to risk the kid who just threw their first double in competition. Same goes for stunting. Make it clean, make it consistent, then use it in the routine. Less stress on the kids and less likelihood of an injury. It will also prompt gym owners to hire qualified, successful tumbling coaches.

kingston said:

If there are a ton more injuries are we as coaches to blame?

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I don't believe all coaches are to blame... I was a tumbler where I hated spots so if I got injured it was on me, and my fault. I knew that, and I never got injured. Any athlete can get hurt doing any skill, even one they have had for years! I came from a gym with awesome coaches that were highly experienced and knowledgeable, but I do understand there are other gyms out there that do not have that. So no, not all coaches are to blame, but they must be responsible and get the experience, knowledge, certification ect. necessary so they can further ensure their athletes' safety.

Not all gyms are to blame, I coached at my old gym for the summer and the only thing I could teach was 3,4 and 5 year olds how to do a forward roll and let me tell you I went to a class before I started on how to teach that forward roll correctly, if I had been there longer they would have taught me how to teach a cartwheel correctly and ect. Some gyms are getting it right but why can't other gyms get the point.

I see a lot of the problem being coaching. I coach but I'm not credentialed, I'll say it up front. Would I like to be yes, but it cost money to become a member, I'm a full time college student and from what I've herd it doesn't take much. However when I teach tumbling classes I do teach in the proper order, and when my gym owner highers someone who is a bad spotter or bad instructor I tell them right away. I covered a class for another coach once and had a girl who almost had a back walkover, I asked her to do a round off and she didn't know what they were, the coach had been to lazy to teach RO's, so I spent an entire class going backwards and teaching these girls a skill they should have been working on for a while. That coach is no longer in the gym! I truly wish there was a required certification program, I know my limits and wont spot higher than a tuck until I am trained in how to spot other skills but I've seen coaches just say okay I'll spot you, having no idea how. I also think some of it is the athlete that just tries things when they aren't ready and the parents who push to hard. I will stop now because I could keep going for ever

Coach Troy said:

And in America that's called consumer choice. I would not design a "hoochie" uniform for gym but I have no right to look at the gym down the street and say anything.
We are all missing the point on this one it's not the uniform that is for parents to decide with thier $$$ the USASF and self righteous individuals are now saying thier standard is better than someone else's. That is arrogant, discrimatory, and should not be allowed

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I do respectfully understand your point of view. I would just like to say that what constitutes "hoochie" is subjective from one person to another. Both my daughters wear crop tops and have for the last five years. However, I was a spectator at an event and was completely offended by another team's uniforms. They did not fit correctly, and as a result, the entire team's butt cheeks were popping out. I even posted a photo of it here and it was removed due to too much skin exposure. Apparently that team's coaches/parents did not have a problem with their uniform or else they would not have competed in it. In their point of view, they were acceptable. I am for length parameters if it means I don't have to see another girl's butt cheeks in a competition.

kingston said:

If there are a ton more injuries are we as coaches to blame?

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Yes, coaches are to blame, and EP's and gym owners and anyone else that is not pushing for higher standards. I can only speak my gym. We are EXTREMELY strict on progression, must be done on tumble trak, then rod floor, then crash mat, then floor. Each progression must be landed with feet together and absorbed through the knees (my experience, locked knees and feet apart are the HUGE part of the problem) all of my advanced coaches can spot the highest level skills but we RARELY spot (my choice, not a requirement) but regardless of your methods coaches need to be educated on WHEN to say WHEN and if the kid can't land it properly take them back and train them, condition them, PREPARE them to execute the skill safely.
So yes, coaches are responsible. Injuries happen, some are not preventable, sometimes no matter what the preparation, accidents happen, however MOST are preventable with the proper training and education.
To answer your question more deeply, as I learned and trained I was required by my mentor to shadow skills that I wanted to teach for a year (yes I did this from backhandspring up through double fulls). I took the initiative I don't know that others do or can. But let me say I have seen too many kids get hurt and I want to put a stop to the preventable injuries. There needs to be a "meeting of the minds" of the elite tumbling coaches across the country bc we all coach differently but we all need to point out the major "do's and don'ts" at least as a start and then move on from there.

i'm going to go with a different approach and say perhaps it is the score sheet. you have to do two release moves, fullups, squad tumbling, but then another tumbling section that shows variety. they want two pyramids and 4-5 jumps to back. they are asking entirely too much of these children and without extending routine times.

There's an assumption that if a CP gets injured from tumbling that they didn't use the correct technique or was not properly taught..LET'S NOT KEEP ASSUMING! I saw this season, a young lady. PHENOMINAL TUMBLER, she can probably out tumble some of the guys on Top Gun, that has been doing her double for over 5 yrs get injured doing her double! What happened....an accident or misstep possibly! But it definitely was not due to technique! I know another young lady....she's been doing her double for about 3-4 yrs!!! At practice twisted her ankle.....came down wrong, bad technique no...accident misstep...YES! IT HAPPENS! Santwon & Kiara at NCA both had touchdowns....now who's going to say they don't have the correct technique!!!

You have professional atheletes that are in tip top condition, get injured all the time just out of the blue...had nothing to do w/conditioning, and nothing to do w/skill...sometimes it just happens! Limiting the tumbling is not going to reduce injuries! Playing sports is hazardous....it unfortunately comes w/the territory! It's only more noticable now b/c the sport is exploding and you have a lot more participants, so of course your going to see and here about a lot more injuries!

If coaching is the issue then provide more classes for them to become properly trained, credentialed, and be adamant about it! Make gyms be held accountable for not having the proper staff in place! But don't take away the hard work that these CPs have put in. It's just backwards to me, because your punishing the wrong people!