All-Star Instead Of Reducing Tumbling How About Huge Tumble Bust Deductions

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I definitely agree...to a point. I have seen my CP fall out of a stunt, and it sucks, but that's life. I am OK with it, she is OK with it, the team is OK with it.

But what I am afraid of is putting SO much individual pressure on an athlete that affects the whole team. (This is assuming that a tumble bust becomes a major deduction.) And I am not talking about the ones who shouldn't be throwing the skill in the first place. I think of the younger teams (tiny, mini, maybe even youth) where a CP may have solid tumbling for the level but a fluke happens. I would hate to lose kids to cheer because they don't want that much pressure. I would prefer the team with terrible form but lands all back walkovers for example to be penalized MORE than the team that has great form and one unfortunate bust.

(And not saying an "unfortunate bust" shouldn't be penalized at all, but I would want this rule to target the scary stuff more.)

You don't think the forwards on a basketball team don't feel that same pressure when they're not hitting their 3 pointers like they usually do? Or the quarterback who keeps throwing incomplete passes and the team is down by 2 and they need to get in fieldgoal range to have a chance to win? There is "pressure" in every sport. You either handle it, or do rec...
 
I understand that it happens too, but at what point does the almighty dollar take a back seat to a parent who insists on their child throwing a skill that seriously could potentially paralyze or kill them? I'm getting a little weary of kids and parents behavior being tolerated by coaches/owners because of the "business."

I am completely weary of kids and parents behavior being tolerated because of the "business." Almost fed up actually. :) (Can you tell it has affected CPs team this year?) But that's another topic, LOL!

My point was to say this would help the owners / coaches stand up to these selfish / bully parents.
 
Let us say no one took out any of the allowed tumbling. But if you bust there are huge deductions. Let us say 5pts at worlds for every tumbling bust, 3 points for a touch down.

Feel free to throw all the skills you want, but you will move down the ranks quickly if you arent performing skills you have mastered.

This also could be applied everywhere at every level. Would not be breaking the rules cycle. And would have the same affect without pissing people off.
Also, that double that doesn't quite make it all the way around....DEDUCTION!
 
You don't think the forwards on a basketball team don't feel that same pressure when they're not hitting their 3 pointers like they usually do? Or the quarterback who keeps throwing incomplete passes and the team is down by 2 and they need to get in fieldgoal range to have a chance to win? There is "pressure" in every sport. You either handle it, or do rec...

Oh definitely.

I guess I was just trying to say that I would want to make sure that full squad scary tumbling that doesn't bust gets penalized in execution as much as if not more so than tumbling with correct form that has a bust. Maybe like someone else mentioned, the actual deduction stays the same (or slightly higher) but the execution score would take a bigger hit in the case of full squad bad tumbling.
 
1. We've been saying it here forever but the first thing we need to take care of is inconsistent scoring. In other words a universal score sheet and consistent judging from the judges at these events. Too often i see teams having to change around choreography and add or take away from their routines because this event rewards x more than y. Or even going to x event brand getting whatever scores and then going to the same ep a couple of weeks later with a better routine and then getting significantly lower scores??? that' needs to be fixed now. that's one of the main things i hate about this sport is inconsistency in score sheet and judging.

2. The new worlds score sheet has taken execution into account a little more, BUT i feel that not only does there need to be a stiff deduction for ALL under rotated twists (people have been primarily been focusing on doubles it seems.) all these kids running around throwing a rebound-set-pike-twist should not be getting full points. and that goes for tumbling across all level. those kids throwing "layout" that are really just a slight set and pike myself over.... no. stop it. Another thing is we need to STICK and STAND. it almost seems as though no one cares about this anymore the one time I've seen someone get hurt was AFTER she landed her double and then went to move or something right after and her foot didn't come along with her. if not a good deduction for these things then we at least need to make executions weight greater. when the new worlds score sheet came out earlier this year i literally ran to the gym to talk to my coaches about it and we even talked with the team about execution scores and that it doesn't matter if you're throwing a skill it need to look good. it needs to be done correctly. and yet i think still there are people with the well it's not the best but we'll get the point for having it. which is a problem if you're going to do something DO IT RIGHT.

3. Coaches. The coaches need to be teaching proper progressions through the skills and teaching these kids the proper technique. BASICS people. TECHNIQUE. when i'm tired in the middle of my routine and i get to something hard i'm not running around thinking omg i'm gonna die, omg please land, omg this omg that pull and pray. I'm thinking about whatever technique i need at that point. "nerves and choking" have nothing to do with it if you teach these kids technique. of course everyone has their days, but a technical person will execute the skills to perfection 11 times out of 10.
finally these kids are way under conditioned. you can not just condition and train over the summer. the only way to maintain yourself and stay healthy is to condition your body all year long. if you "don't have time" at practice then they should be doing it at home. our teams have to send videos to their coaches of them doing the required conditioning every night. if these kids were in the proper physical condition the technique would not be so difficult for them and their would be a lot fewer injuries because of that.

IMHO these restrictions are not going to prevent injury it's all just going to trickle down because we've removed a tier from the level.
 
This could have a MASSIVE change in how we approach skills. Everyone would dial back what they attempt and really work on perfecting those skills if one busted tumble means you don't win or place well.
That's the only way you'll ever get perfection before progression. There's no hit for a team or program to just keep progressing them past their ability just so you can build "teams" you don't actually have. 3 janky fulls does NOT a large junior 5 make! This would not only force people to perfect before they progress but would get teams competing in the level appropriate for them.
 
I definitely agree...to a point. I have seen my CP fall out of a stunt, and it sucks, but that's life. I am OK with it, she is OK with it, the team is OK with it.

But what I am afraid of is putting SO much individual pressure on an athlete that affects the whole team. (This is assuming that a tumble bust becomes a major deduction.) And I am not talking about the ones who shouldn't be throwing the skill in the first place. I think of the younger teams (tiny, mini, maybe even youth) where a CP may have solid tumbling for the level but a fluke happens. I would hate to lose kids to cheer because they don't want that much pressure. I would prefer the team with terrible form but lands all back walkovers for example to be penalized MORE than the team that has great form and one unfortunate bust.

(And not saying an "unfortunate bust" shouldn't be penalized at all, but I would want this rule to target the scary stuff more.)
See this is the whole point. Put MORE pressure on coaches to ONLY compete skills that are ready. Now you can get away with a bust here, a hand down there, a sloppy bhs etc. The pressure should be on coaches to teach skills correctly, if the coach doesn't and just expects the kid to do it on the floor, the responsibility is that of the parent to relocate.
 
And that will be more heart breaking to a kid then telling them they can't do a double punch double any more.
How's that any more heartbreaking than the 27 times Michael Jordan was trusted with the game winning shot and missed? In reverse....when they all hit...they're heroes. It's the nature of competition.
 
You don't think the forwards on a basketball team don't feel that same pressure when they're not hitting their 3 pointers like they usually do? Or the quarterback who keeps throwing incomplete passes and the team is down by 2 and they need to get in fieldgoal range to have a chance to win? There is "pressure" in every sport. You either handle it, or do rec...
Hey rec teams have pressure too! lol. I'm not saying that little kids can't handle competition or that we need to baby them. But I don't necessarily think upping the deductions are going to be the end-all to solve the problem. I like the idea of having a technical deduction, that should be huge but would be difficult to train to judge. Are kids getting injured more in competition or in practice? They won't compete skills that aren't solid but will they train kids harder to get the skills to compete them therefore increasing their chance of injury?
 
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the safety concern with these skills is not just in competition. If that was the case, then more severe deductions would go a long way to preventing coaches from putting sloppy skills on the floor.

I think there are just as many safety concerns with the process of learning these skills, with throwing them in your own gym until you are able to do it on the competition floor. More severe deductions will not fix this issue. Kids will still be aiming for skills that their coaches can't properly teach.
 
I cut your post down a bit for size issues- but even in other sports, flukes still get punished. My brother can spike like it's his job, but when his hand misses and he nets it, it's still a penalty. We've seen gymnasts lose world/olympic titles on easy turns or on a missed grip that is so easy a level 4 could do it..but even still, you don't see SUPER serious risks on things that could cost them a loss. They're cautious about putting enough in to win/demonstrate their awesome without killing themselves or going overboard. That's where we need to be..
I'm reminded of Dan Jansen when he was favored to win the gold in the 500 and fell in the first turn and didn't finish....Nagano I believe. Just because he was Dan Jansen he didn't get a break.
 
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the safety concern with these skills is not just in competition. If that was the case, then more severe deductions would go a long way to preventing coaches from putting sloppy skills on the floor.

I think there are just as many safety concerns with the process of learning these skills, with throwing them in your own gym until you are able to do it on the competition floor. More severe deductions will not fix this issue. Kids will still be aiming for skills that their coaches can't properly teach.

But if the skills are not viable until they are perfected it will slow down the learning process and work more on perfection.

You can regulate how people practice and compete in two ways: by judging or rules. Rules say what you cannot do, but more effectively judging encourages you to do what you SHOULD do. There is little reward to try stuff that will put you in last place.
 
1. We've been saying it here forever but the first thing we need to take care of is inconsistent scoring. In other words a universal score sheet and consistent judging from the judges at these events. Too often i see teams having to change around choreography and add or take away from their routines because this event rewards x more than y. Or even going to x event brand getting whatever scores and then going to the same ep a couple of weeks later with a better routine and then getting significantly lower scores??? that' needs to be fixed now. that's one of the main things i hate about this sport is inconsistency in score sheet and judging.

2. The new worlds score sheet has taken execution into account a little more, BUT i feel that not only does there need to be a stiff deduction for ALL under rotated twists (people have been primarily been focusing on doubles it seems.) all these kids running around throwing a rebound-set-pike-twist should not be getting full points. and that goes for tumbling across all level. those kids throwing "layout" that are really just a slight set and pike myself over.... no. stop it. Another thing is we need to STICK and STAND. it almost seems as though no one cares about this anymore the one time I've seen someone get hurt was AFTER she landed her double and then went to move or something right after and her foot didn't come along with her. if not a good deduction for these things then we at least need to make executions weight greater. when the new worlds score sheet came out earlier this year i literally ran to the gym to talk to my coaches about it and we even talked with the team about execution scores and that it doesn't matter if you're throwing a skill it need to look good. it needs to be done correctly. and yet i think still there are people with the well it's not the best but we'll get the point for having it. which is a problem if you're going to do something DO IT RIGHT.

3. Coaches. The coaches need to be teaching proper progressions through the skills and teaching these kids the proper technique. BASICS people. TECHNIQUE. when i'm tired in the middle of my routine and i get to something hard i'm not running around thinking omg i'm gonna die, omg please land, omg this omg that pull and pray. I'm thinking about whatever technique i need at that point. "nerves and choking" have nothing to do with it if you teach these kids technique. of course everyone has their days, but a technical person will execute the skills to perfection 11 times out of 10.
finally these kids are way under conditioned. you can not just condition and train over the summer. the only way to maintain yourself and stay healthy is to condition your body all year long. if you "don't have time" at practice then they should be doing it at home. our teams have to send videos to their coaches of them doing the required conditioning every night. if these kids were in the proper physical condition the technique would not be so difficult for them and their would be a lot fewer injuries because of that.

IMHO these restrictions are not going to prevent injury it's all just going to trickle down because we've removed a tier from the level.

Took the words out of my tweet ;) people can get as upset about the tumbling as they like. The bigger issue here is that they are trying to legitimize the sport and not actually addressing anything that will add legitimacy. What they SHOULD be addressing is a universal scoring grid, an effective and realistic athlete credentialing system and a rigorous and authentic coaches training course that involves more than a 3hour class and an open book test to call yourself "certified."

As of now, with these changes...we'll "look" more legit but there still isn't a system in place to actually enforce anything they just mandated (which is especially true for the age brackets) we have people putting kids on teams that are out of the age bracket all over the place and that already isn't policed....without addressing what REALLY matters (scoring, credentialing and coaching certification) this won't make us any more legit than we are now.
 
So you take Coach from Craptastic Allstars, who loses every season because she doesn't field teams in the right division... I think she's a big pusher for skills before perfection. What's stopping her from continuing? She clearly isn't interested in winning to start with.
 
I don't know about more heart-breaking, but I can see the psychological impact it could have on a child. Mentally screwy, especially when you think about how mean kids can be. It'd be terrifying to know you can't screw up even if you do it 100x/100x in practice? No one is perfect. No routine is perfect. It never will be when you've got so many subjective elements in a routine.
I don't know....I never cheered (totally don't know how I managed to give birth to two of them) but I played every sport known to man in the era where you didn't get a trophy unless you won the whole thing. You didn't get the trophy for just being on the team and the ego stroking pat on the back when you were 1-12. I turned out okay. Probably too competitive for my own good but maybe that's because I worked hard to get the trophy and when it didn't happen...I went back to practice and worked harder.
 
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