All-Star Instead Of Reducing Tumbling How About Huge Tumble Bust Deductions

GreatWhite92 said:

I was about to comment on that. Why are we just restricting lvl5? Do the other levels not matter either? Make that cowboyed tuck a deduction. Because those are scary to watch!

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I can't tell you how many times i've cringed watching a level 3 team that has a bunch of crazy looking tucks! Even some of these lvl 2 teams w/janky BHS are scary!

5-6-7-8 said:

I definitely agree...to a point. I have seen my CP fall out of a stunt, and it sucks, but that's life. I am OK with it, she is OK with it, the team is OK with it.

But what I am afraid of is putting SO much individual pressure on an athlete that affects the whole team. (This is assuming that a tumble bust becomes a major deduction.) And I am not talking about the ones who shouldn't be throwing the skill in the first place. I think of the younger teams (tiny, mini, maybe even youth) where a CP may have solid tumbling for the level but a fluke happens. I would hate to lose kids to cheer because they don't want that much pressure. I would prefer the team with terrible form but lands all back walkovers for example to be penalized MORE than the team that has great form and one unfortunate bust.

(And not saying an "unfortunate bust" shouldn't be penalized at all, but I would want this rule to target the scary stuff more.)

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This is a competitive sport....there is pressure in competitive sports! If you're playing basketball and miss a shot that cost your team the game...that's pressure! Football, if you miss a tackle or drop or fumble the ball...that's pressure and even more so if you're then benched! That's individualized pressure! Ppl need to better prepare thier CPs if they are concerned about thier kids being pressured! Yes we all want our kids to enjoy the sports that they play, but it needs to be explained that somebody is going to win, somebody is going to lose, and that EVERYBODY MAKES MISTAKES!

Mightymouse34 said:

obviously you don't have proper technique if you cant land it in a competition. So therefore increasing the bust or touch down deduction will make your think twice before throwing a skill you can only hit in your gym. Even if its 100 out of 100 times you still didn't land it when it counts. We're trying to make cheer a respectable sport, so we need to face the fact that performing under pressure is part of a sport...in football a field goal kicker can hit a 30 yard field goal 100% of the time during practice, but that doesn't make him a good kicker. What makes him a good kicker is the fact that he can nail the field goal when the game is on the line and it matters most. That goes with any other sport. I understand flukes happen, but in any other sport there is no difference between a fluke and a mistake, they both lead to the same outcome. And I don't believe there should be a difference in cheer either.

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1. Just because you land a skill every time doesn't mean you have perfect technique. The point of the whole point of this change was to make the sport safer. You can land your double without finishing your hips 100/100 times but that doesn't mean it is safe for you to be doing it that way.

2. Not landing a skill on the competition floor doesn't "obviously mean you don't have good technique". You can have perfect technique until you freak out and bail. Kiara Nowlin busted her NCA tumbling pass(quite gracefully actually, and she popped up and tumbled out of it) she is an Olympic medalist because of her technique, are you saying to her, "obviously you didn't have bad technique?"

3. You don't think twice about what your coach tells you to throw in the routine. The athlete can't be blamed if the coach deems your skill worthy of the routine.

I agree that something must be done to get these tumbling rules changed but I also believe that it will take time and over time I hope a better strategy can be developed. In my mind, I can't justify having stunting and tumbling deduction be equal because in a stunt there are usually 4 people so no one person has to take complete blame, in tumbling on the other hand all of the blame would be placed on one athlete. No one knows what that athlete is going through mentally and physically so it seems unfair to punish a whole team based on one athletes performance that could have been completely not like themselves due to some unknown circumstance. I do see that this system would help overall but I believe that it would be devastating to some athletes. I wish there was a way that could ensure that athletes would only throw passes that they can land every time, with good technique, while also allowing space for mistakes that don't usually occur.

i say we just ignore usasf completely

taytaydaubs said:

In my mind, I can't justify having stunting and tumbling deduction be equal because in a stunt there are usually 4 people so no one person has to take complete blame, in tumbling on the other hand all of the blame would be placed on one athlete.

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Flyer bails? I totally blame her. Backspot or base trips? Yup, blaming them.

taytaydaubs said:

No one knows what that athlete is going through mentally and physically so it seems unfair to punish a whole team based on one athletes performance that could have been completely not like themselves due to some unknown circumstance.

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Then every team should win! Awesome, let's give out first place trophies to every team because who knows what happened to them. They could just be performing like level 4 athletes even though it's not like them. We don't know, who are we to judge? Why even bother with a judging panel, or deduction judges?

Competition is about what you bring to the floor that day, that moment. Not about what you can do in your own gym on your own time. This is the spirit of competition.

Mclovin said:

Our society needs to get over the idea that we have to be so gentle to a kid's emotional state of mind. Competitive sports is just that, competitive. Yes, probably every kid on a team is going to be the reason a team lost at some point. Whether it be due to busting a skill or falling out of a stunt or whatever. Get over it. It's gonna happen. Stop trying to be so delicate with it. Toughen up. Our entire country is going to pot because we're so scared to offend people! Blah!

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Think of soccer - you can't blame the goalie every time a goal is scored - even though the goalie may be the one that misses the ball and it goes into the net - what led up to the goal in the first place? a forward got past a defender? a penalty led to a free kick... my point is - its a TEAM sport - same in cheer - and I agree - its competitive! Every kid on the team has a job to do - sometimes mistakes are made - the team learns from it and moves on... my son knows he has to do his job in midfield or a goal may be scored - and believe me sometimes individual mistakes - even in soccer result in the other team winning, but that is the nature of the sport.... if there is a tumbling bust then deduct since we don't keep score like other sports - deduct for poor execution - I will say I think my daughter's team executes tumbling well... but it never seems to matter - when we go against teams that don't.

I love the idea of deductions instead of eliminating skills.

It has been said that eliminating these skills could be temporary and that the USASF knows that there is a problem deeper, but this isn't a new problem it has been there for years and they have done nothing to fix it. Instead of working on the situation they have allowed it to get worse to the point of just eliminating skills. I have little faith that with this elimination of skills that they are going to work on fixing the real problem because they haven't done it before.

just adding my opinion, but don't other people think that even though these skills are illegal, whats going to stop girls from throwing them in their own gym? Unless there coaches strongly follow the rule, what is going to stop an athlete from trying a standing full or a double. And if they go to a gymnastics gym for a tumbling class, they could throw it there too. Just because it is banned at competition isn't going to stop girls from throwing them. Therefore, the rule couldn't nescarily curve the injury rate

True dat explosion<3. Back tuck baskets are illegal at level 5? No sweat, just don't throw them in competition.

explosion<3 said:

just adding my opinion, but don't other people think that even though these skills are illegal, whats going to stop girls from throwing them in their own gym? Unless there coaches strongly follow the rule, what is going to stop an athlete from trying a standing full or a double. And if they go to a gymnastics gym for a tumbling class, they could throw it there too. Just because it is banned at competition isn't going to stop girls from throwing them. Therefore, the rule couldn't nescarily curve the injury rate

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Yeah because I am sure a big chunk of the injuries happen at practice not competition.

kingston said:

Worth MORE than a stunt fall. Fix this faster.

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Why though? A stunt fall involves 3-5 people messing up. A tumbling fall is one person. I'm all for sizable deductions for falls, but let's not let this get out of hand. Cheerleaders fall on both tumbling and stunts all of the time even if they are completely capable of doing these skills properly and safely. That is why everyone goes out there and competes!

Knowcheering said:

Why though? A stunt fall involves 3-5 people messing up. A tumbling fall is one person. I'm all for sizable deductions for falls, but let's not let this get out of hand. Cheerleaders fall on both tumbling and stunts all of the time even if they are completely capable of doing these skills properly and safely. That is why everyone goes out there and competes!

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Correct, but if they were taking away tumbling because too much was competed with too little consequence you change the things you can to affect how people compete. It is like the Fed lowering the interest rate to encourage growth.

Everyone loses for one reason or another. There is only one winner in a competition. We once had a team lose at NCA by .01 I believe because an athlete landed her tumbling and then fell walking to her spot...it was a deduction for a behind on the floor. It happens. Whether deductions are for fallen stunts, hinky jumps or busted tumbling we need to get away from everyone's feeling should be spared. Sometimes you lose. Learn from it. And be safe while you do it.

My thing is that it was never intended for humans to jump backwards onto their hands and spring off the ground (i.e bhs) nonetheless throw a double. With that being said their is a possibility for injury whether trained properly or not but these kids who work so hard for these skills and for it to be taken away from them doesnt make any sense! You can tear your ACL running ( ive seen it happen) -I'm just saying!