All-Star "males - Minimize Exaggerated Or Theatrical Movements"

Just-a-Mom · Mar 31, 2012

Mamarazzi said:
I agree with you, but I think the biggest problem is that the "Etiquette Suggestions" were released at the exact same time as "The Rules." Therefore, I believe the intent of the Suggestions was to be abided by as Rules.

sigh... It is so hard to keep typing this on my phone so I will have to politely request that people go back and read all my posts in this thread instead of just one and replying to it. This is now the fourth time in 24 hours that I have said YES, the timing of the document's release was horrendous. But that doesn't make it any more binding. It. Is. Not. A. Rule. It was so clearly not rules from the way it was set up (red, yellow and blue graphs and charts???) to the way it was worded. I honestly am having a hard time seeing how people thought/think it was a rule document.

I'm sorry but if you saw that pdf and thought those were binding rules that they were going to enforce, then I don't know what to tell you. Did y'all honestly think they were gonna give deductions for arriving in boots??? Same document. No way no how could this thing have been taken as rules.

I understand it was released at the same time. But come on. Of course they "intended" for people to abide by them - the USASF expects everyone to abide by everything they say! But expectations and "binding" are 2 COMPLETELY different things. I'm sorry but I can not wrap my head around looking at that colorful chart and thinking it was in any way, shape, or form a legally binding, enforceable rule document.

It looked just like the rest of the fluff USASF puts out that no one ever reads. Maybe they put it out the same day because they thought we might actually read it for once. (well if that's the case it apparently worked!)

TheUltimateFan · Mar 31, 2012

Mamarazzi said:
Well, that's a pretty hefty request. I don't disagree with it, but in all instances, you can't really ask for an apology without being ready to accept it, forgive, and move forward from that place. The USASF removed the offensive suggestion from the official material, and if there's an apology given - a true apology, not "I'm sorry YOU felt that way about what WE said," - then I don't know what more can be done to rectify the situation. We have to be willing to forgive. If we're not, we need never ask for the apology in the first place.

Absolutely agree. I can forgive if a sincere apology is delivered. What I am asking is how they are going to undo the damage they have already done?

My forgiveness is meaningless. I want to know that every male athlete that steps on the floor does so without the nagging thought that how he performs from his heart could negatively impact the subjective portion of his team's score. I want to know they walk on the floor totally believing in what they bring to and for us. Saying "I'm sorry" is just words, it doesn't change the beliefs that generated the guideline in the first place.

Just-a-Mom · Mar 31, 2012

I do, however, agree wholeheartedly that an apology is completely in order. I am only trying to clear up the issue of people thinking this was a legally binding document. And I agree with Mamarazzi that it can not be in the form of WE are sorry YOU took this wrong. But then we have to forgive. That's the point of asking for an apology - if you aren't willing to forgive, then asking for apology is pointless.

njallday · Mar 31, 2012

Just-a-Mom , it just isn't your week between this conversation and the new uniform comment

sheeesh.

UltimateRudags I admire what you're doing. If you feel something is wrong, you should take action and stand up for what you believe in. A whole lot of damage has been done, in my opinion. Allstar cheer, at one point, was a safe haven for boys and girls alike to escape to... a place they could truly be themselves and not try to conform to who society wants them to be. Now, while some seem to be making humor out of it (with the #deduction trend and whatnot) it undoubtably hurt a lot of people. While everyone may not be as proactive about is as you ( UltimateRudags imrichhowboutu ) I have a feeling there will be quite a few boys who will now be self conscious throughout their performance, which ruins the good spirit of cheer, IMO.

I'm not sure a lawsuit would be the solution, but a public apology sure as heck would be one step in the right direction.

Deleted member 15 · Mar 31, 2012

TheUltimateFan said:
I completely agree, but I wonder if that will be enough. I remember sometime, somewhere reading in a child development article that it takes 10 positive statements to undo the psychological damage from one negative statement. That applies here, in bullying and in everyday life.

To have credibility USASF is going to need to go beyond just a public apology - who would believe it was generated from their hearts rather than by their lawyers? I (personally) want to see proof, in small and large ways, that they embrace the rights of gay men in our sport and the value they bring with them to this sport.

What could/would serve as proof?

munchkinmom · Mar 31, 2012

TheUltimateFan said:
Absolutely agree. I can forgive if a sincere apology is delivered. What I am asking is how they are going to undo the damage they have already done?

My forgiveness is meaningless. I want to know that every male athlete that steps on the floor does so without the nagging thought that how he performs from his heart could negatively impact the subjective portion of his team's score. I want to know they walk on the floor totally believing in what they bring to and for us. Saying "I'm sorry" is just words, it doesn't change the beliefs that generated the guideline in the first place.

How about a "fiercest dance" individual award. One male, one female for each session. Encourage it, and display you value it.

Mom Jeans · Mar 31, 2012

I dont think it matters if USASF intended to be hurtful. Think before you speak.

If I run over someones foot and break it by accident, I didnt mean it, but the result is the same

They can erase it from a document, but it was there and it was said and had no one said anything it would've remained there.

TheUltimateFan · Mar 31, 2012

Andre said:
What could/would serve as proof?

I don't know the answer to that, Andre. As a heterosexual, white female I can never fully understand what this type of prejudice must feel like or what it would take to make me believe the attitudes themselves truly have changed - not just that someone is giving me lip service or that people are just jumping on the cause celebre.

Are any of the current board members openly gay? That would be a place to start. Sensitivity to the issues and an inside viewpoint/influence in decision-making.

I would pose that question to the young men here who are impacted. What would make you believe that USASF respects who you are and what gifts you give to us?

uptown_outlaw · Mar 31, 2012

Point blank... they took it off, acknowledging they were wrong. They are also most likely instructed not to talk about it.. So all we can do is hope they take the next step..

p.o.k. · Mar 31, 2012

Well with the new tumbling rules if they are to be enacted, I think they will drive a lot boys away. Take care of the theatrical issue quickly. Just because usasf took the documents down does not mean they think what said and did was wrong. This may just be a way to placate the masses!

Rudags · Mar 31, 2012

TheUltimateFan said:
Are any of the current board members openly gay? That would be a place to start. Sensitivity to the issues and an inside viewpoint/influence in decision-making.

Yes.... Some of the board members are openly gay, but I don't think I should give names as it is not my place. However, I don't think it matters. IN MY OPINION, it seems to be no secret that Varsity/Jeff Webb like men to act like men. So no matter if the person who wrote the Etiquette is gay or not - I dont think the people at the TOP like it.

Just-a-Mom said:
sigh... It is so hard to keep typing this on my phone so I will have to politely request that people go back and read all my posts in this thread instead of just one and replying to it. This is now the fourth time in 24 hours that I have said YES, the timing of the document's release was horrendous. But that doesn't make it any more binding. It. Is. Not. A. Rule. It was so clearly not rules from the way it was set up (red, yellow and blue graphs and charts???) to the way it was worded. I honestly am having a hard time seeing how people thought/think it was a rule document.

I'm sorry but if you saw that pdf and thought those were binding rules that they were going to enforce, then I don't know what to tell you. Did y'all honestly think they were gonna give deductions for arriving in boots??? Same document. No way no how could this thing have been taken as rules.

I understand it was released at the same time. But come on. Of course they "intended" for people to abide by them - the USASF expects everyone to abide by everything they say! But expectations and "binding" are 2 COMPLETELY different things. I'm sorry but I can not wrap my head around looking at that colorful chart and thinking it was in any way, shape, or form a legally binding, enforceable rule document.

It looked just like the rest of the fluff USASF puts out that no one ever reads. Maybe they put it out the same day because they thought we might actually read it for once. (well if that's the case it apparently worked!)

I agree. It was NOT binding.... But what they COULD DO, is the same thing they did at NCA College Nationals to Boys (Which is a WHOLE other issue) - If boys are in front and do a 'theatrical dance' or are really in the dance at all highlighted....You score VERY LOW. I know this from experience. I think its wrong to not allow the guys to be showcased in dance.... but again - that is a WHOLE other issue - but yet it is related.

Rudags · Mar 31, 2012

I would also like to add - I heard a 'rumor' from a fairly reliable source. Im labeling it a rumor, because I can't prove it besides a he said/she said thing - but I was informed that 'they' threw in the 'Males only - No theatrics part" AFTER people looked at the Etiquette 'Guidelines' and approved it. Again, no fact behind it except I did hear that from a reliable source. But since people can't openly talk about it if they are on the board - I guess it will just remain a rumor. I don't think it is that hard to issue an apology.

"Dear USASF Members and to whom it concerns -

We would like to apologize for the way our original Etiquette Guidelines read. Under no circumstances were we trying to single out a group of individuals because of physics characteristics that they have no choice in. They document was worded poorly and obviously came across in a way not intended. In no way was it meant to be discriminatory. Both males AND females sometimes can be distracting in routines with their exaggerated performances to the judges. We again, apologize for the message that was received due to poor wording. We have since removed that wording from our document and are currently reviewing how to reword it to not single any one out. We are sincerely sorry for this and appreciate your patience while we review this document. Shimmy away!

With love,

The USASF"

TheUltimateFan · Mar 31, 2012

UltimateRudags said:
Yes.... Some of the board members are openly gay, but I don't think I should give names as it is not my place. However, I don't think it matters. IN MY OPINION, it seems to be no secret that Varsity/Jeff Webb like men to act like men. So no matter if the person who wrote the Etiquette is gay or not - I dont think the people at the TOP like it.

I wouldn't want you to name names. But you just confirmed my whole point. Having them apologize doesn't mean the V-powers will change their opinions or how those opinions will affect you in the future - in more subtle (less public) ways.

They are just words. Yes, it would be nice to hear them apologize and acknowledge the wrong. But I go back to what I keep asking...how are they going to undo the damage already done?

OLDCHEER · Mar 31, 2012

UltimateRudags said:
Yes.... Some of the board members are openly gay, but I don't think I should give names as it is not my place. However, I don't think it matters. IN MY OPINION, it seems to be no secret that Varsity/Jeff Webb like men to act like men. So no matter if the person who wrote the Etiquette is gay or not - I dont think the people at the TOP like it.

I agree. It was NOT binding.... But what they COULD DO, is the same thing they did at NCA College Nationals to Boys (Which is a WHOLE other issue) - If boys are in front and do a 'theatrical dance' or are really in the dance at all highlighted....You score VERY LOW. I know this from experience. I think its wrong to not allow the guys to be showcased in dance.... but again - that is a WHOLE other issue - but yet it is related.

JayySoFierce · Mar 31, 2012

Stated earlier, but I'm openly gay & I was without a doubt offended. Imagine the one place & sport in which you can ACTUALLY be yourself started to say "no, stop that. straighten out" like, no. It was a straight blow to something i've grown to love and made me quite frankly VERY happy this is my last age eligible year. :confused:

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