All-Star Varsity Scoring Update: Squad Tumbling - 75% = 100%

AScheer said:

I had already heard about this rule 2 weeks ago from a gym talking about it to the parents for tryouts. They did know about this before tryouts and chose teams accordingly. I'm curious as to if all gym owners were notified about this sooner, or if the info was sent out to everyone at the same time, because around here we knew this rule prior to tryouts. ASCheerMan?

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Actually, the gym owner you are referring to was part of the focus group that helped create this idea. It was made clear to the group that the decision to move on 75=100 hadn't been made and that the information shouldn't be shared with anyone else.

Once the gym owner realized they had breached confidentiality over am item that wasn't finalized, they voluntarily took down the video and professed what had happened. This situation was one of the reason we decided to release the info prior to rolling out the complete 2012-2013 system.

Actually, we nixed many of the ideas from that meeting so that program lucked out that the change they reacted to officially became part of the system.

ASCheerMan said:

Actually, the gym owner you are referring to was part of the focus group that helped create this idea. It was made clear to the group that the decision to move on 75=100 hadn't been made and that the information shouldn't be shared with anyone else.

Once the gym owner realized they had breached confidentiality over am item that wasn't finalized, they voluntarily took down the video and professed what had happened. This situation was one of the reason we decided to release the info prior to rolling out the complete 2012-2013 system.

Actually, we nixed many of the ideas from that meeting so that program lucked out that the change they reacted to officially became part of the system.

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Thanks for clarifying!

drewpate said:

I'm not surprised by this, but I can say I'm a little dissapointed. I really feel this could hurt participation in level 1, which at all ages I feel is a vital part of our sport. It also removes a huge advantage I have over other teams (at least the ones in my area that I see every weekend). I've already had my teams beat in tumbling at some regional comps (most notably at an NCA event for what it's worth) by teams with sub par difficulty, execution, and quantity. While I chalked that up to poor judging, this will make it worse.

Another thought, it's easier to judge whether a team has full squad than it is 75%. And it's harder to explain to parents why we scored equal to a team we had more skills than.

However ASCheerMan , I can see its merit and it is better than the half plus one that was mentioned in 'that' announcement from the usasf. It will actually help a couple of our teams, and make choreo easier, it just removes a competitive advantage that my teams (already selected) have so I'll be a lil bitter . And it's going to make them have to go HARD in tumbling to set themselves apart, but I'm okay with that lol. (this is all from a medium gym perspective in case it matters. Right around 200)

kingston
Do you think this would this have changed the way some of the rays teams are made being that NCA is your main focus (outside of worlds)

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I don't understand how you think this could hurt level 1's...I feel the exact opposite. Now my mini 1's can perfect skills before I am forced to throw them in for scoring purposes! The more I read both sides...the more I agree...even though our gym only participates in a limited capacity with Varsity Brands.

I am sorry, but this is where I fall right in line with Darren Demoss! If you have more kids who hit the tumbling pass then you should win that part. It seems like Varsity is trying to make everyone excepted instead 0f working their butts off to learn. Universal Scoring system for all! Let the venues make changes so their's are more needed. Make it universal.

I've seen more teams have deductions for kids throwing tumbling skills (back handsprings to their head is the majority of what ive seen) they aren't ready for at WSA competitions than any other event. Is it WSA's fault that coaches put their kids in situations where they could be seriously injured? No, but for competitive coaches it's something they are willing to risk (I assume) to get into the high range. And then in that high range you have to add more specialty passes and so on to max out. On VB score sheets you only need 50%+1 to get into high range (you can also reuse tumblers) and then 75% put you in the upper end of high range. So as stated earlier this is not a huge change, maybe .1 or .2 bc of variety and amount. I feel like this change is mostly just to give coaches a reason to not put kids in dangerous situations. For WSA the difference in throwing 75% and 100% is more like 1-2 points which kills your chances of 1st place, bc of the way the final score is averaged. IMO score sheets like WSA promotes sandbagging as well. I've witnessed teams dropping level 4 athletes onto their level 2 teams in order to win. At least the VB scoresheet lets teams / coaches who do not sandbag or have kids compete skills they are not ready for still be competitive. Sometime we are competitive to a fault and it's nice to have wiggle room to be creative with the kids who do not tumble at the given level.

On a more personal note, we chose teams by stunts first. It's not unusual for me to put a flyer who has master level 2 stunting skills, (and I'm confident will be a safe level 3 flyer) who may not have a tuck, standing series, or punch-front yet. We train them and they work their butts of to get those skills all season. And when they do, we add them in. I haven't met one cheerleader who doesn't want to be included in the tumbling section of their routine. But they know they will not be included until they are ready. This does not reward mediocrity, but makes them work harder because they don't want to be the weak link. They may not get it until February so until then we will not have 100% tumbling. That's why VB, Jammy, and CHEERSPORT scoring works for us, but WSA does not. If those scoresheets don't work for you, then don't go to their events.

ok Im just gonna give my opinion without reading through this thread...
75 percent...yeah ok I guess that could work...I could see a specific "bonus" for having 100% do this skill
However since coed stunts is becoming a very prominent part of the score sheet, your going to need your bigger boys (in theory/ on paper..obs not always the case) for those building skills to max out that section and sometimes your going to have to trade strength for tumbling...

In terms of the safety argument, I think rather then focusing on the difficulty section of the score sheet, changes need to be made the EXECUTION section. Execution should be worth more than difficulty in order to promote the development of safe skills. I don't know how many times I have seen a level 4 team with vomitus full team piked "layouts" beat out a team with 50%+1 beautifully executed layouts and specialty passes. But again I don't think this problem comes down to difficulty. Increase the value given to execution and start deducting for improper technique and problem solved.

In all honesty this is probably not going to affect your teams scoring very much. There are many teams, World Champion teams, that haven't had 100% of a given tumbling skill when they won. Pretty sure, and correct me if I'm wrong, Rays waters down some of their kids just for the sake of execution. I mean, even if they're all still throwing level appropriate skills the point is they are actually reeling them in a little.
I feel as though this will just put coaches at ease knowing that if Suzie doesn't have here back-handspring, tuck; Two-to-layout, etc. that it's OKAY to have her and even a few others tumble down a level until they acquire said skills.

People saying this will breed lazy athletes are false. Someone said before they don't know one kid who doesn't WANT to be in the tumbling portion of the routine, but know they won't be because they don't have the skill. That stands even with the way it was before. If they won't work for it now they weren't going to either way.

Though timing is usually poor when it comes to these things, practices start next week at my gym, it really won't change thing too drastically in terms of how your team may score imo. Also when you have that 75% doing say jumps into there tumbling you have the other 25 percent doing some fierce transition or some other visually appealing skill set that keeps things moving.
I love a DYNAMIC routine and I'm pretty sure the judges do too. Continuously moving and ever flowing. Like FCA this year i LOVED how the dance started before pyramid was over.

It opens the door for even more creativity in choreography, which i for one love.

I still think execution/ technique needs a bit more emphasis... i hate seeing these teams throw pikes... not layouts so stop telling your kids how good their "layout" was, or those fulls where it's just a full twisting pike. Don't tell that girl that was a good full.. but i digress..

Oh and the whole thing with safety. that's good too.

PullandPray23 said:

ok Im just gonna give my opinion without reading through this thread...
75 percent...yeah ok I guess that could work...I could see a specific "bonus" for having 100% do this skill

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We considered this idea, but ultimately it doesn't matter if points are standard to the score or bonus to the score. If Team A earns 5 'bonus' points by throwing a squad skill, then that still puts the 75%Team B at a 5 point deficit, which will cause Team B to rework their routine and ultimately incorporate squad skills to catch up to Team A by 5 points. You end up right back where you started.

ASCheerMan said:

Kristen, you ARE great as there is a USASF Announcement re: All Star Prep (All Star Rec) coming soon.

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AS Prep was around last year. I am having an incredible response in my area with this.

hopskipandjump said:

AS Prep was around last year. I am having an incredible response in my area with this.

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Where do you fin info on this? What makes the difference between rec, prep and regular?

I made this point on another thread: cheer is a team sport. The idea that every football player has to be a great quarterback, or every soccer player needs to be a great goalie - well, you'd say those were ludicrous statements. Yet we expect every athlete on a cheer squad to have level-appropriate tumbling skills, even when tumbling is just one portion of a cheer performance and a relatively small percentage of the scoresheet.

"75% is the new 100%" encourages diversity in the types of athletes you put on a team and takes some of the hyper-focus off tumbling. I cannot count the number of times I hear kids say "I have my tuck, now I can be on youth/junior 3", when in some cases those kids may not be ready to do any other level 3 stunt, jump sequence, etc.

I like the idea. I know it's anathema to the tumbling-centric, but in the long run it's actually a really good idea. (and this is coming from a parent whose kid mostly loves to tumble more than anything) And I also don't think it should change the focus on getting kids up to speed on tumbling - because even if it doesn't get you more points on the scoresheet, having a full squad of tumblers offers you a lot of flexibility in how you craft a routine and what you can do if you have injuries, mental blocks, etc.

So are we thinking that the transitions/formations part of the scoresheet is going to be really important this year, since they're giving the 25% of wiggle room?

newcheerdad said:

I made this point on another thread: cheer is a team sport. The idea that every football player has to be a great quarterback, or every soccer player needs to be a great goalie - well, you'd say those were ludicrous statements. Yet we expect every athlete on a cheer squad to have level-appropriate tumbling skills, even when tumbling is just one portion of a cheer performance and a relatively small percentage of the scoresheet.

"75% is the new 100%" encourages diversity in the types of athletes you put on a team and takes some of the hyper-focus off tumbling. I cannot count the number of times I hear kids say "I have my tuck, now I can be on youth/junior 3", when in some cases those kids may not be ready to do any other level 3 stunt, jump sequence, etc.

I like the idea. I know it's anathema to the tumbling-centric, but in the long run it's actually a really good idea. (and this is coming from a parent whose kid mostly loves to tumble more than anything) And I also don't think it should change the focus on getting kids up to speed on tumbling - because even if it doesn't get you more points on the scoresheet, having a full squad of tumblers offers you a lot of flexibility in how you craft a routine and what you can do if you have injuries, mental blocks, etc.

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I respect what they are trying to do, but disagree with the method. In response to your post that is why High Schools have JV and freshmen teams. There are age ranges (Tiny, Mini, Junior, Senior, Open) and within those age ranges there are divisions. You don't have to be a great cheerleader to be able to participate in the sport, but I DO believe that you should be leveled appropriately.

If there is an injury or an issue you should be able to replace that person with another, but just like in any other SPORT if you replace a person on a team, usually they are not as good as the person they are replacing and your team may not do as well. (Think the Lakers without Kobe Bryant or the Colts without Peyton Manning). Without key people the teams don't do as well, just like cheerleading, but they don't make it easier for those teams to compete with others.

There should be goals and rewards for achieving those goals in cheer as well. It is hard for some to swallow, but not all athletes can be level 4-5, just like not all HS athletes will even make a team or the varsity squad.

To respond to ASCheerMan I do like what you have done, but think it should be 75% to get into the upper range, but those teams that have 100% of the team executing the skills should be at the upper part of the top range and then deduct for execution accordingly. That way if a team throws the skill just to get into the top range that doesn't necessarily mean that they will beat outscore teams that have 75% of the athletes that have perfect or near perfect execution.

Thoughts?

locdawg44 said:

To respond to ASCheerMan I do like what you have done, but think it should be 75% to get into the upper range, but those teams that have 100% of the team executing the skills should be at the upper part of the top range and then deduct for execution accordingly. That way if a team throws the skill just to get into the top range that doesn't necessarily mean that they will beat outscore teams that have 75% of the athletes that have perfect or near perfect execution.

Thoughts?

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If the category on the scorsheet being affected was titled 'Participation,' then your idea works. But remember, we are talking about 'Tumbling Difficulty,' which includes so many factors, in addition to participation.

Remember, this announcement doesn't promise you a high score, or that you'll even score in the top range. It just states that, when formulating your Difficulty score, your 75% particiipation will be considered as if it were 100%. From a judges perspective, I would say that this announcement is in line with the way they've been evaluating this category anyway.