All-Star I'm Going To Cheat

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ASCheerMan -
That being said - and not putting you on the spot but asking for my general knowledge (feel free to PM me if you prefer) , is there a plan in place or being discussed by USASF/Varsity that will deal with repeat offenders? If the same program(s) are coming up year after year accused of something against the rules is there something that can be done? Also IMO there is a major difference in being found not guilty vs innocent and it seems at times we give the not guilty declaration but there is definitely something amiss that is not exactly innocent either. Are there plans to fully disclose those as well.

To clarify, the Disciplinary Committee is a by-product of the USASF, NOT Varsity. I don't sit on either committee, so I'm not certain whether or not a discussion about repeat offenders has taken place. I will say that the process for litigation by these two commitees underwent a major overahaul after the 2010-2011 season, so its unlikely that any person will be viewed at as a 'repeat offender' until they've been categorized a 'repeat offender' under the current process. As far as the USASF is concerned, we are starting from scratch in this area. Does that make sense?

To SarahS, while I'm not positive about my response, I'm fairly certain an official timeline of release hasn't been put together. All I know is that the USASF is doing a better job at crossing their T's and dotting their I's, and doing so responsibly takes time. As I stated, we are starting from scratch. Some of the issues occurring right now are unprecedented, so it makes more sense to devise a communication plan on a case by case basis for now, rather than arbitrarily decidinig that the best timeline has the public announcement being released 5 business days after the decision is made. As important as it may be for you to have first hand knowledge of the details regarding a case, it's more important that it be communicated at a pace that makes sense for those involved.

Also note, very few cases ever make it all the way to these USASF Committees. Putting on my NCA hat: For every 50 complaints of illegal participation I hear about a year, probably only 1 one of those get submitted to me for official investigation. And probably only 1 out of every 10 of those actually result in a gym being found guilty.

And if, as an Event Producer, I deal with the situation at hand, chances are it won't get submitted to the USASF Disciplinary Committee. There are many, many more false and unofficial accusations of cheating then there are actual cases of official investigation. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2011-2012 list of USASF Ruling Notifications is blank because they simply didn't have any formally submitted for review.
 
How do you determine original team? Some kids are put on multiple teams from day one.
You can't. It is the age old are they crossing up a level, crossing over same level or crossing down a level argument. So you have to hit all of the teams they are on.
Point well taken. In my head it would have been the age appropriate team but I can see the problem in this if an athlete is crossing over from a jr 2 to jr 4 for example. I guess it would be the team the athlete would have to be on if they for some reason had decided to do only one team after teams were named, but to avoid all problems with this you would have to sanction all of the teams the athlete was on.
 
Our coaches are actually prepared for people to call us out. They're putting my sons birth certificate on top because we're sure someone will say something...

...my weed is pushing 6-1 and crosses between a junior and senior team. The thing is, he just turned 14 in May. He IS a junior, he just looks like he's 18.

I know this was from pages ago, and I think everyone agrees that something better than birth certificates is needed, but just to stir the pot a little for your competition this year ;)... how does a birth certificate prove anything? I've always wondered this - and i'm really only using your son as an example, not because I think you would do this (I know you wouldn't). But if I'm from a competing gym, and your gym shows a birth certificate that says he is 14, how do I know it's HIS birth certificate and not his next door neighbor's? Or another son you have that doesn't cheer? Everyone keeps saying you can forge one. You don't even need to forge it - just use someone else's. They don't have photos or anything. I'm so confused as to why birth certificates are even used. They don't prove anything.

Forget birth certificates or copies of birth certificates they are too easy to forge. EP's & Gyms should be asking for an original passport, or at the very least state issued hard card ID(s). Most states have "walker" IDs for those not old enough to drive. Match the face with the passport or ID when the team signs in for warm ups. Much harder for a parent to forge a passport or state ID

Just to add to what's already been said to this - passports are very hard to get for some people. My older daughter can't get one because her father refuses to sign the papers (he's convinced I'm trying to steal her and run away to another country :rolleyes: because he is an idiot). So for 17 years she's not been able to leave the country. She can't even go to Canada to visit her aunt or see Niagara Falls and we had to cancel a cruise because he wouldn't sign. And we live in a state that doesn't do IDs for people under 16. So my kids would just have had to quit cheer I guess?

I totally get what you're saying (see what I posted above about birth certs), but I just think the ID system is the ONLY way to fix the problem. And it just really is not that costly or logistically difficult as people make it out to be.
 
I know this was from pages ago, and I think everyone agrees that something better than birth certificates is needed, but just to stir the pot a little for your competition this year ;)... how does a birth certificate prove anything? I've always wondered this - and i'm really only using your son as an example, not because I think you would do this (I know you wouldn't). But if I'm from a competing gym, and your gym shows a birth certificate that says he is 14, how do I know it's HIS birth certificate and not his next door neighbor's? Or another son you have that doesn't cheer? Everyone keeps saying you can forge one. You don't even need to forge it - just use someone else's. They don't have photos or anything. I'm so confused as to why birth certificates are even used. They don't prove anything.

(edited for length)

I totally get what you're saying (see what I posted above about birth certs), but I just think the ID system is the ONLY way to fix the problem. And it just really is not that costly or logistically difficult as people make it out to be.

I agree that the birth certificate alone does not prove anything. I am convinced that our old gym uses birth certificates from former athletes who are no longer with their program when they need to tweak the ages of some of their current kids. I have no proof of this of course but knowing that they competed with a 12 year old on a youth team an entire season and that one of their juniors was handing out invitations to her Sweet 16 the same season, I have no reason to doubt that using other athletes' birth certificates is within the realm of reason for them. And that being said, I should really send them a formal request to return the notarized copies they have of my cps' birth certificates....
 
I agree that the birth certificate alone does not prove anything. I am convinced that our old gym uses birth certificates from former athletes who are no longer with their program when they need to tweak the ages of some of their current kids. I have no proof of this of course but knowing that they competed with a 12 year old on a youth team an entire season and that one of their juniors was handing out invitations to her Sweet 16 the same season, I have no reason to doubt that using other athletes' birth certificates is within the realm of reason for them. And that being said, I should really send them a formal request to return the notarized copies they have of my cps' birth certificates....

Yep. We went to a gym that I know for a fact does the same thing. And when my daughter was injured for US Finals and didn't compete, they used a college girl to fill in for her and just never changed the roster, so it seemed like my cp competed. (We didn't know this until about a year later when we saw the fill-in and someone said something about her college graduation and I was like "Um....wait a minute...what?") It's been a few years, but had I known at the time I would have FLIPPED. They don't even use notarized copies so it'd be pointless to ask for it back - it's just a regular photo copy.

(Oh, they did horribly at that US Finals, so no worries about the poor other teams. LOL I think they got something like 14th place?)

I think someone asked this, but I'm curious too. Since they didn't win, what would really have been an appropriate punishment for them anyway if they had been caught? ASCheerMan - in this instance (above), the gym changed names (and colors, not that it matters) but not owners or location the following season. Would any punishments have followed them with the new name?
 
I know this was from pages ago, and I think everyone agrees that something better than birth certificates is needed, but just to stir the pot a little for your competition this year ;)... how does a birth certificate prove anything? I've always wondered this - and i'm really only using your son as an example, not because I think you would do this (I know you wouldn't). But if I'm from a competing gym, and your gym shows a birth certificate that says he is 14, how do I know it's HIS birth certificate and not his next door neighbor's? Or another son you have that doesn't cheer? Everyone keeps saying you can forge one. You don't even need to forge it - just use someone else's. They don't have photos or anything. I'm so confused as to why birth certificates are even used. They don't prove anything.
The great things about the birth certificates and the USASF Athlete Identification is that once they are entered in the system, that profile will follow the athlete for the rest of their career. So, if, in the year 2022 a parent wants to lie and declare that their daugther is 17 and not the true age of 18--they'll need to living that lie NOW, while the daughter is only 8 yrs of age. Because now is the time to file her Athlete Identification and its the profile being created today that she'll need to live by in 10 years.

I agree with you that there will always be loopholes and opportunities will always exist that will leave a way for cheaters to find a way to cheat. The fairest system might be to prick the blood of each athlete while they are standing ON THE MAT to ensure that their DNA matches the DNA we have on file. But at some point, you must implement a reasonable system that will dissuade most people from taking that step and breaking the rules and go to sleep at night knowing you did what you could.

I would be cautious that we don't overanalyze the system. I retierate that the number of ACTUAL occurrences is relatively minimal.
 
The great things about the birth certificates and the USASF Athlete Identification is that once they are entered in the system, that profile will follow the athlete for the rest of their career. So, if, in the year 2022 a parent wants to lie and declare that their daugther is 17 and not the true age of 18--they'll need to living that lie NOW, while the daughter is only 8 yrs of age. Because now is the time to file her Athlete Identification and its the profile being created today that she'll need to live by in 10 years.

I agree with you that there will always be loopholes and opportunities will always exist that will leave a way for cheaters to find a way to cheat. The fairest system might be to prick the blood of each athlete while they are standing ON THE MAT to ensure that their DNA matches the DNA we have on file. But at some point, you must implement a reasonable system that will dissuade most people from taking that step and breaking the rules and go to sleep at night knowing you did what you could.

I would be cautious that we don't overanalyze the system. I retierate that the number of ACTUAL occurrences is relatively minimal.

Justin,

You answering questions on here (in a way a very vulnerable position) does more to fix people's perceptions of Allstar and the USASF more than pretty much all the other efforts I've seen. Thanks. I know everyone appreciates it (even if the answers aren't always what people want).
 
Yep. We went to a gym that I know for a fact does the same thing. And when my daughter was injured for US Finals and didn't compete, they used a college girl to fill in for her and just never changed the roster, so it seemed like my cp competed. (We didn't know this until about a year later when we saw the fill-in and someone said something about her college graduation and I was like "Um....wait a minute...what?") It's been a few years, but had I known at the time I would have FLIPPED. They don't even use notarized copies so it'd be pointless to ask for it back - it's just a regular photo copy.

(Oh, they did horribly at that US Finals, so no worries about the poor other teams. LOL I think they got something like 14th place?)

I think someone asked this, but I'm curious too. Since they didn't win, what would really have been an appropriate punishment for them anyway if they had been caught? ASCheerMan - in this instance (above), the gym changed names (and colors, not that it matters) but not owners or location the following season. Would any punishments have followed them with the new name?

My answer to your question varies depending on who's enforcing it. If it were an NCA event and the cheating was verified, we would have stripped the gym of their 14thplacement, asked for the trophy and awards to be shipped back (which we would never receive) and republished the updated rankings, noting that there was a change because of the disqualified team.

There is no long term consequence for the gym owner as you are correct, its as easy as changing the name of your business.

The USASF would only investigate the situation IF it was submitted as a protest to the Disciplinary Committee. In that event, I can't speak to what the penalty would be except to say that the committee would likely review whether or not NCA handled the issue adequately and fairly. Meaning: there's no need for the USASF to get involved if the Event Producer remedied the situation at the microlevel.
 
The fairest system might be to prick the blood of each athlete while they are standing ON THE MAT to ensure that their DNA matches the DNA we have on file.

Soooo...are you saying that you guys are NOT working on the DNA method???:eek:


;)

LOL I totally agree that at some point it has to just be, "OK. We've done everything we can to dissuade cheating." And unfortunately people still will. But I think taking steps towards fixing it is important. (And like kingston said - it says a LOT every time you come on here and deal with all our questions. We appreciate it)
 
edited for length

Just to add to what's already been said to this - passports are very hard to get for some people. My older daughter can't get one because her father refuses to sign the papers (he's convinced I'm trying to steal her and run away to another country :rolleyes: because he is an idiot). So for 17 years she's not been able to leave the country. She can't even go to Canada to visit her aunt or see Niagara Falls and we had to cancel a cruise because he wouldn't sign. And we live in a state that doesn't do IDs for people under 16. So my kids would just have had to quit cheer I guess?

I totally get what you're saying (see what I posted above about birth certs), but I just think the ID system is the ONLY way to fix the problem. And it just really is not that costly or logistically difficult as people make it out to be.

I know the passport thing is a pain, I needed to renew my CP's passport one time when my hubby was working out of the country and he needed to be physically present for the renewal,which was impracitcal as he was out of the country...(That's why I believe that everyone should be issued a passport at birth like a social security number and when you have custody issues/divorce it should be handled via court approval. But that is a whole other issue...:D)

BUT I think in the end we agree...photo id :chestbump: is the way to go.

BTW: Illinois does issue ID's for minors. (Not sure if that is were you are from, just going off of your profile thingy)

:)
 
It is unfortunate that people feel the need to cheat. Its even more unfortunate there are families out there "living the lie" with 8 year olds. (At least in little league baseball!)

With that said...not condoning cheating... but does one athlete make or break a cheer team? In some sports like baseball or football I would say yes it matters who is the pitcher or the quarterback). In cheer one awesome tumble run isn't going to win the competition, one great flier isn't going to win the competition if the rest of the team can't keep their stunts up. Is it really necessary to use underage/overage athletes or cross 1 athlete over to 4 teams?

I know, I know :deadhorse:.
 
Also note, very few cases ever make it all the way to these USASF Committees. Putting on my NCA hat: For every 50 complaints of illegal participation I hear about a year, probably only 1 one of those get submitted to me for official investigation. And probably only 1 out of every 10 of those actually result in a gym being found guilty.

And if, as an Event Producer, I deal with the situation at hand, chances are it won't get submitted to the USASF Disciplinary Committee. There are many, many more false and unofficial accusations of cheating then there are actual cases of official investigation. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2011-2012 list of USASF Ruling Notifications is blank because they simply didn't have any formally submitted for review.

With athlete registration underway I would love an all star world where every rule infraction that is handled by an EP be reported to the USASF for follow up and so there is a record of it.

To add to the transparency topic, if a punishment is handed out by the USASF that info should be released quickly and the transparency alone would stop a lot of what we saw the other night because all the info would be out there and it would leave nothing for those that like to stir the pot with gossip/lies to work with.

As kingston stated, thanks for putting yourself out there and answering all these question because it truly does help the sport.
 
Is it really necessary to use underage/overage athletes or cross 1 athlete over to 4 teams?

I know, I know :deadhorse:.
I shouldn't add this, but for some gyms, it's culture. Especially if it's the same level but different ages- your role on one could be more 'mature'/supportive, and another can be for experience. It's like starting JV and sitting bench/subbing in for Varsity.
 
I shouldn't add this, but for some gyms, it's culture. Especially if it's the same level but different ages- your role on one could be more 'mature'/supportive, and another can be for experience. It's like starting JV and sitting bench/subbing in for Varsity.

Yes, I see your point. I am talking about under/over age, crossovers being used as an intentional cheat.
 
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