All-Star Scores Vs. Number Of Skills - Nca Nationals

Mclovin · Mar 14, 2013

Ok, I am ONLY posting this information to get discussion started. I am not bitter about results in any way. How could I be, I mean, my baby won!! lol BUT, after see the category breakdown scores of the medium coed division, it prompted me to go watch a few teams and count the number of tumbling skills they threw and compare that to the difficulty score they received. I was shocked at my results. Here are my findings:

South Elite:

14 standing tumbling skills to full/double - received a score of 8.5
14 elite running tumbling passes (specialty to full, double, specialty to double) - received a score of 8.6

Spirit of Texas:

30 standing tumbling skills to full/double - received I THINK an 8.9
12 elite running tumbling passes (specialty to full, double, specialty to double) - received I THINK an 8.9

Twist & Shout:

39 standing tumbling skills to full/double - received an 8.9
26 running tumbling passes (specialty to full, double, specialty to double) - received an 8.9

________

Ok, according to the Varsity Scoring Guidelines, in order to get in the high range for tumbling (8.7-9.0) you had to have 75% of your team (23 for a medium team) throw a skill thru to full/double; in order to score in the medium range (8.3-8.6) you had to have 50% + 1 (16) and then anything below that was the low range which was 8.1 - 8.2.

South Elite scored an 8.6 on running with 14 passes and an 8.5 in standing with 14 but according to the guidelines they should have been in the low range.

Spirit scored an 8.9 in standing with 30 passes (this meets requirement for high range) and an 8.9 in running with 12 passes which again should have been in the low range.

Obsession scored an 8.9 in standing with 39 and an 8.9 in running with 26 passes.

___________

Okay. Now for discussion purposes...how are these judges so off? Do we think the Varsity scoring guidelines are impossible for them to follow in tumbling without video replay? I would really like to get some good discussion going on this.

I have other concerns, too, but I will start with this. Go!

idrive · Mar 14, 2013

I think they are just missing things or interpreting the scoring grid incorrectly. My kids were both on different level teams and both had similiar experience at NCA. I really do think the only way to get it better (not perfect) is to have an additional panel that reviews the scores against a video replay.

GreatWhite92 · Mar 14, 2013

There is no reason that tumbling and stunting difficulty shouldn't be judged by a video replay where the judge can correctly count each skill performed. There is no way a judge can catch all that in 2 and a half minutes. I am surprised we havent reached that point already. I always will support King 's idea of video judging for difficulty and live judges for everything else.

King · Mar 14, 2013

GreatWhite92 said:
There is no reason that tumbling and stunting difficulty shouldn't be judged by a video replay where the judge can correctly count each skill performed. There is no way a judge can catch all that in 2 and a half minutes. I am surprised we havent reached that point already. I always will support King 's idea of video judging for difficulty and live judges for everything else.

I don't understand why not to do it at major competitions where it's already being videoed anyway.

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12stepCheermom · Mar 14, 2013

This would be easy to fix if every team had to submit some standard form that requires all tumbling, stunts etc. to be listed so the range is already determined when they come out. Then judges just have to watch for omissions, incomplete skills that don't count etc. in case it drops them to a lower range.

I really don't understand why this is difficult to do. They could be turned in at the coaches meeting and already prepared for the judges when the teams come out.

King · Mar 14, 2013

12stepCheermom said:
This would be easy to fix if every team had to submit some standard form that requires all tumbling, stunts etc. to be listed so the range is already determined when they come out. Then judges just have to watch for omissions, incomplete skills that don't count etc. in case it drops them to a lower range.

I really don't understand why this is difficult to do. They could be turned in at the coaches meeting and already prepared for the judges when the teams come out.

Possibly the better question is: is this difficult to do and why? if we knew why it was difficult we wouldnt ask for it anymore. But I see the desire for this growing.

12stepCheermom · Mar 14, 2013

King said:
Possibly the better question is: is this difficult to do and why? if we knew why it was difficult we wouldnt ask for it anymore. But I see the desire for this growing.

I'm hoping with people like nfinity getting into event production they'll step out of the box and pilot something like this. If their tag line is to be different, this would be a great way to be different and perhaps attract customers.

Lewis_Duh_ · Mar 15, 2013

when the season started i worried about south doing poorly the entire season because all they can do is stunt...but apparently their stunt is good enough to help their tumbling scores too lol....but honestly medium coed wasnt the only division at nca that was off with scores and ranges !

f1g1r1 · Mar 15, 2013

Yet another reason why cheerleading isn't at sport in most peoples eyes? Add Stars dance score at NCA to the questionable judging.

Emily · Mar 15, 2013

f1g1r1 said:
Yet another reason why cheerleading isn't at sport in most peoples eyes? Add Stars dance score at NCA to the questionable judging.

I would rather add their dance score at UCA.

Mclovin · Mar 15, 2013

12stepCheermom said:
This would be easy to fix if every team had to submit some standard form that requires all tumbling, stunts etc. to be listed so the range is already determined when they come out. Then judges just have to watch for omissions, incomplete skills that don't count etc. in case it drops them to a lower range.

I really don't understand why this is difficult to do. They could be turned in at the coaches meeting and already prepared for the judges when the teams come out.

THIS!!! I have been saying this for a while now. Why not??? I can understand at smaller, regional comps the money just isn't there for extra judges, etc., but at the 4 major nationals and worlds...video replay and turning in your list of skills in the routine should be required. I just don't think it's humanly possible for the judges to catch all the fakers, no throws, etc. in a live routine, but our sport is coming to the point where counting skills is absolutely necessary. However, I do believe the judges at NCA messed up BIG TIME in handing out scores in tumbling. I can understand not being able to decipher if a team was at the high end of the medium range or low end of high range...but to give a team a score at the HIGH END OF HIGH RANGE when they clearly, even watching live, had very few passes, not even enough to get into the medium range, is absurd. We have to do better than that.

Something else that happened to me personally at NCA that I would like to touch on. My J3 team was one of the only teams in their division to do 5 stunts. Most everyone else had 4. Yet we scored in the low end of the high range while the other teams scored at the high end of the high range. I was told by a judging official that 4 stunts WERE max and that once you were in the proper range, it was judges discretion as to where to place your score. Since when is 4 stunts max? Even on the Varsity scoring grid it said maximum number of athletes being used to get into high range. Only on the basket part did they specify that front spots were included in having max. They never specified that on the stunts. What are your opinions on this?

quitthedrama · Mar 15, 2013

Mclovin said:
THIS!!! I have been saying this for a while now. Why not??? I can understand at smaller, regional comps the money just isn't there for extra judges, etc., but at the 4 major nationals and worlds...video replay and turning in your list of skills in the routine should be required. I just don't think it's humanly possible for the judges to catch all the fakers, no throws, etc. in a live routine, but our sport is coming to the point where counting skills is absolutely necessary. However, I do believe the judges at NCA messed up BIG TIME in handing out scores in tumbling. I can understand not being able to decipher if a team was at the high end of the medium range or low end of high range...but to give a team a score at the HIGH END OF HIGH RANGE when they clearly, even watching live, had very few passes, not even enough to get into the medium range, is absurd. We have to do better than that.

Something else that happened to me personally at NCA that I would like to touch on. My J3 team was one of the only teams in their division to do 5 stunts. Most everyone else had 4. Yet we scored in the low end of the high range while the other teams scored at the high end of the high range. I was told by a judging official that 4 stunts WERE max and that once you were in the proper range, it was judges discretion as to where to place your score. Since when is 4 stunts max? Even on the Varsity scoring grid it said maximum number of athletes being used to get into high range. Only on the basket part did they specify that front spots were included in having max. They never specified that on the stunts. What are your opinions on this?

You just hit upon my pet peeve! My kids have mostly competed on small teams, and if we have had a team of 20, we ALWAYS have 5 stunts. Nothing ticks me off more than a team of 20 putting up 4 stunts scoring the same. It makes absolutely no sense! (same goes for Large Senior - I can't fathom how teams with 7 elite stunts can score in the high range - that is equivalent to a small team of 20 putting up 3 stunts!!)
I am all for requiring a standard form showing skills that are to be performed, and video replay is a must to get scoring accurate. I completely agree that there is no way a judging panel can accurately count the number of skills thrown, particularly during synchro tumbling, and it is unfair to expect these judges to score accurately with the current system.

NEliteSteven · Mar 15, 2013

Welp. This explains my confusion with some of the placements.

rvnblue · Mar 15, 2013

What allows judges to score in high ranges instead of low or medium is the "loosely" wording applied to the "most" and "majority" wording applied. If judges subjectively decide a pass is more difficult or more than one person per pass and timing, they can score in the higher ranges.

rvnblue · Mar 15, 2013

Mclovin said:
Ok, I am ONLY posting this information to get discussion started. I am not bitter about results in any way. How could I be, I mean, my baby won!! lol BUT, after see the category breakdown scores of the medium coed division, it prompted me to go watch a few teams and count the number of tumbling skills they threw and compare that to the difficulty score they received. I was shocked at my results. Here are my findings:

South Elite:

14 standing tumbling skills to full/double - received a score of 8.5
14 elite running tumbling passes (specialty to full, double, specialty to double) - received a score of 8.6

Spirit of Texas:

30 standing tumbling skills to full/double - received I THINK an 8.9
12 elite running tumbling passes (specialty to full, double, specialty to double) - received I THINK an 8.9

Twist & Shout:

39 standing tumbling skills to full/double - received an 8.9
26 running tumbling passes (specialty to full, double, specialty to double) - received an 8.9

I counted 9 for spirit lol

All-Star Scores Vs. Number Of Skills - Nca Nationals

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