All-Star Proposed Age Changes For Next Season From Doral.

I also have an 11 yo who can full. I wouldn't let her near a Sr 5 team now. She has too much to learn to be on one. Proper flying technique being one of them. Her flying under three 18 yo athletes is not helping her.


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M

INeverStopCheering said:

Another point Id like to make in support of raising the age floor for ALL senior teams:

I'm a back spot on a senior team. Because it's advantageous to use smaller fliers, and because those kids are talented, most of our fliers are 12 and under. I have never backed a kid over the age of 11.

Now going into college where there are no itty bitty baby fliers, I worry about my ability to back people who are closer to my size. How will I be able to lift a 120 pound girl when all I've ever done is an 85 (if that) pound girl.

So the argument that it's not fair to hold ten and elevens back is negated by the argument that its not fair to their bases and backs to put them on the team. I got cheated out of the chance to work with weight appropriate fliers. And while it was good at the time because we won, in the long term, I got the short end of the stick because I am ill prepared for college


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My 11 yo CP is currently basing a 16 yo on her restr5 team. When ppl hear she is on a sr team, they assume she is a flyer, but she's bigger than some of the 17 yo!

I recently heard of a similar scenario as you fear. Several boys from a team notorious for tiny flyers had difficulty at college tryouts because they were not used to putting up larger girls.

W

BamaCheerGuy said:

I also have an 11 yo who can full. I wouldn't let her near a Sr 5 team now. She has too much to learn to be on one. Proper flying technique being one of them. Her flying under three 18 yo athletes is not helping her.


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What if her only other options were a youth 3 or jr 2?

I've been on only senior teams since I was 11 and have never based/backed someone younger than me. I do now, but only because I'm one of 4 juniors on my team and there's only one senior, so everyone else is pretty much an 8th grader/freshman/sophomore. Some would assume that since I was put on one so young it was to fly... but that's not always the case (I've never flown in my life)! I was put on a senior team young and turned out fine.

Valvalmom said:

W
What if her only other options were a youth 3 or jr 2?

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She cheers a jr 3 right now. I have no problem with it. She is still learning.


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BamaCheerGuy said:

She cheers a jr 3 right now. I have no problem with it. She is still learning.


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She flies, right? So what if it was a youth 3 where she wouldn't fly or a jr2 where the highest tumbling would be a bhs?

I was against younger ones on a sr team initially as well, but her maturity, commitment to the sport, and attention span fit much better with the senior kids than the youth 2 kids who are mostly coming off mini1.

I have no issues with a youth 3. I am against quick progression. She can throw a full yes, but she has to learn to do all the flying. My only argument is putting a bottom age on sr 5 and tiny teams. That is understandable. I don't want a bottom age on any other level or age. That is a sport killer. I am also against anyone moving up too fast because they have a full. I think progression as a whole is lost. We have done away with a full altogether. He throwing a full doesn't make her mature. Trust me, she still enjoys 11 yo things!


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King said:

I believe in cheerleading, as is in life, most people just want a fair shot. They want to feel like they got a fair chance in whatever contest they are attempting. Yes they will not enjoy and probably complain about losing (if they do as would I) but it takes the truly enlightened to realize if someone is upset they lost or upset they never had a chance to begin with.

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So what's the real reason why there are so many "baby flyers"? I mean, why would a gym put a little kid out there to throw their janky standing tuck and pull a dorito scorpion in the first place? And after four years of observing this sport and attending major competitions, the answer is obvious...because these gyms feel like it's the only way they can compete.

Now this isn't an indictment of younger kids on older teams. I stand by my original statement - while I prefer teams be age appropriate, you need to have a model where talent is allowed to "play up". That beautiful flyer or elite tumbler should have the ability to compete on a higher level team - even if that team is comprised of much older kids - if their skills warrant and they have the maturity to compete at that level. But the truth is that this isn't happening at many gyms, and what's happening instead is that everyone's putting the babies in the air even if they're not ready to be, because they think if they don't they've got no chance.

The reality is that they don't have much of a chance even if they do put the babies in the air. And that is the elephant in the room, isn't it?

If you look objectively at the major competitions - Worlds, NCA, Jamfest, etc. - you see a pretty consistent trend where the same gym are at or near the top. I haven't run the numbers, but I would bet cash money that there are probably, what, 75-100 gyms max that pretty much dominate the top level of cheer. Not necessarily winning Worlds, but consistently have teams that win competitive divisions at major events.

The gap between those teams and everyone else is striking. I look at my daughter's now former gym - a fairly large program with over 300 kids some years - that goes to these major comps and gets smoked more often than not. The issue isn't size of gym. It's the fact that some gyms, whether it be talent base, coaching, facilities, or some combination thereof - are simply so far ahead of everyone else.

This isn't limited to cheer. Look at college football, for example. Even within the football bowl subdivision (FBS) - the highest level of the sport - there are major differences between the haves and have nots. So much so, in fact, that there is discussion about creating yet another NCAA college football division on top of the four that already exist.

So what's the answer here? I'm not sure it's creating rules that attempt to bring everyone else back to the pack. Nor is it to create weird, arbitrary age limits that do nothing but stifle progression of elite athletes.

Perhaps it's time that cheer take a lesson from the NCAA - or heck, from many other sports - and create divisions. Maybe it's time to say that the top-100 gyms compete in their own division, and are the only ones that are allowed to have Worlds teams. Everyone else competes in the other division. So rather than Small Gym Junior 3, it's Division 1 Junior 3 and Division 2 Junior 3.

How do you pick those teams in Division 1? Look at the last three years of results for the gyms in Worlds and Worlds bid giving competitions, and pick the 100 teams with the best results. Every couple of years you can evaluate the list and determine if a.) there are teams in Division 1 that shouldn't be there anymore based on performance and b.) there are teams competing in Division 2 that are dominant and probably need to compete in Division 1. I'm not going to get into the mechanics of how that would work, but there are numerous examples in other sports about how that could.

Is that perfect solution? No. But I think so many rule changes over the years, whether it's been tumbling restrictions or age grid changes, are attempts to solve the real issue in piecemeal. The issue is that there's a discrepancy between the elite levels in all-star cheer and everyone else, and until that's addressed things will only get worse, not better.

How does other travel sports survive having age appropriate teams?

I have numerous hockey and baseball programs to choose from within a 30 mile radius. There is always a home for someone.

With change there is pains but I believe with perseverance you will succeed in the end.

I love this proposed age grid but to be fair I have to admit I like it because I hope that some day all star will be referred to as a sport instead of an industry. I feel this splits age groups on par with other sports so it is a step in the right direction.

NoOneSpecial said:

How does other travel sports survive having age appropriate teams?

I have numerous hockey and baseball programs to choose from within a 30 mile radius. There is always a home for someone.

With change there is pains but I believe with perseverance you will succeed in the end.

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I don't know how it works elsewhere, but here, you don't just make a travel team, you try out and many get cut. Most allstar gyms don't cut people, but they'll start having to if they aren't skilled enough for the teams they have. And I think that would be a sad day for our sport. Tons of people start late and progress quickly, but if you're 13 and trying out with no tumbling at a gym fielding a j2, j3, j4, or j5, you'll get cut, and then you lose not only a potential athlete, but potential income for your gym, and USASF

cheernerd5678 said:

I don't know how it works elsewhere, but here, you don't just make a travel team, you try out and many get cut. Most allstar gyms don't cut people, but they'll start having to if they aren't skilled enough for the teams they have. And I think that would be a sad day for our sport. Tons of people start late and progress quickly, but if you're 13 and trying out with no tumbling at a gym fielding a j2, j3, j4, or j5, you'll get cut, and then you lose not only a potential athlete, but potential income for your gym, and USASF

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True they get cut but there are options. So maybe that gym looses out but another gym wouldn't and definitely not the USASF. Maybe an athlete tried out at another gym and gets cut. It can be a circle just like I see it in other sports.

Just curious - if age was adjusted more appropriately - could teams at gyms grow and progress together?

Does everything have to always come down to the almighty dollar? What about the Sport as a whole? Or the athlete as an indiv? As another poster posted - for the backs spots/bases how does flying a 12 year old prepare them for college cheer?

All points raise valid concerns. There probably isn't a cut and dry formula that will be the best possible situation for every size
gym or every child. I remember back in the "old" days when you stayed on a youth team through 6th grade. Going to a jr. team was a very big deal, and you stayed through 9th grade. Jr/Jr. coed teams were very strong. There were no tiny youth flyers on a jr. team. No junior age flyers on a senior team and senior teams looked like true senior teams. When there were exceptions it would only be by a year/grade.
It may not have been the perfect situation for every gym or child but just my opinion that gave everyone the ability to be stronger, as a team and individually.

NoOneSpecial said:

How does other travel sports survive having age appropriate teams?

I have numerous hockey and baseball programs to choose from within a 30 mile radius. There is always a home for someone.

With change there is pains but I believe with perseverance you will succeed in the end.

Click to expand...

I know in hockey there is the option for an exceptional player to play in a higher age group. My brother, a 94 in hockey years, has had 95s and the occasional 96 on his teams. If they have the skill, they get to use it.


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This is slightly off topic, but I had a couple friends (Juniors in High School) interested doing all star. After doing research, they decided not to do it anymore because out of all the senior teams (3) only about five other people were in high school and that was on the higher level teams. They didn't want to be on a team with elementary and middle schoolers. The only thing straying them away from cheering was the feeling of having to babysit these kids, as most of them were younger than their siblings. Of course I have never cheered or coached before so I don't have much experience to talk, but as an outsiders point of view, I know that many older people decide to not cheer because of not being on a team with people their age. If the age grid was moved to 13 for a senior aged team, I think that more people wouldn't have the fear of being on a team with "babies" and of course all the other reasons previous posters have mentioned.

ETA - Sorry if this post makes absolutely no sense at all. I am beyond sleep deprived. It is almost 5 A.M. and I cannot sleep at all yet I can barely keep my eyes open.


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