All-Star Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

HotmEssJeSS said:

im just saying peoplE think this isnt "fair" or they just dont like the idea of splitting divisions but there are already so many things that are unfair and will continue to be unfair...that's aclled life. for example how top 3 from each country moves on in international divisions while you have teams moving on that barely score 100 and then you have a team that placed 4th in semi finals and just because they lost by that .05 point they dont deserve and chance to become a world champion.. it stinks and its unfair but thats the rules. also you guys are all talking about how "worlds" is like the superbowl and the olympics when youre not even discussing the international teams at all. all i see on here is about sm med and lrg teams and they dont compete against anyone outside of the US(and forgive me if im wrong about not discussing international teams but i dont see it anywhere.) and this wasnt directed at any one personally just simply something ive noticed while reading this thread

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We're not talking about international divisions because the proposal is only about small and medium senior/coed. And just so you know, international teams can compete in senior divisions if they want to, but they have to go by our age grid not the international one. So some teams do end up going against people outside the US, depending on the year and division.

This could help bring more international teams into the regular Senior Divisions

CGAcheer said:

This could help bring more international teams into the regular Senior Divisions

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I've always heard it's more of an issue of having a group of kids in that age category as opposed to competitiveness. I could be wrong though.

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kristenthegreat said:

I've always heard it's more of an issue of having a group of kids in that age category as opposed to competitiveness. I could be wrong though.

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I would imagine they have some of the same issues that small market smaller gyms have as well, a smaller number of kids to pull from

I truly feel something like this will totally kill the feeling and desire to win a worlds title. Not every Suzie gets to be a world champion get over it. The truly great programs will no longer feel like a worlds title means anything and will stop going. The only thing that would make sense is to have it at the summit and let them be summit champions therefore keeping the 2 seperate.

Boo21 said:

I truly feel something like this will totally kill the feeling and desire to win a worlds title. Not every Suzie gets to be a world champion get over it. The truly great programs will no longer feel like a worlds title means anything and will stop going. The only thing that would make sense is to have it at the summit and let them be summit champions therefore keeping the 2 seperate.

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Who is "them"? Just curious.

Some event producers get a huge number of teams to go to their event making it next to impossible for a new or smaller event producer to ever catch up. Having that many teams allows them to do many things with their event that a new, smaller EP simply can't hope to match. NCA's massive pool of registration fees allow them to rent a huge facility with tremendous lighting and staging. This creates a huge incentive for teams to go to their event instead of a smaller, newer event producer. Sure, it is a "free market", but is it really "fair" to those smaller EPs to have to compete head-to-head against someone like NCA or Varsity who have so many built-in advantages?

Should we be figuring out ways to minimize how many teams go exclusively to Varsity events to more evenly spread out the teams among the various event producers?

While we are at it, the economies of scale available to the Varsity uniform company aren't available to someone starting a new uniform company either . . .

Who is John Galt?

I'll like any post with John Galt.

I'd be curious to find out if USASF has a plan for how the dollars/bids would work. Because if the teams that always get paid Worlds bids on the large gym ticket didn't have all those dozens of little gyms to pay their way with their oft-ridiculed "they don't deserve to be here" At Large bids....would there be as many paid bids in D1? I suppose USASF would just continue to take the money from the D2 side, wherein the real Worlds profit lies.

TheUltimateFan said:

I'd be curious to find out if USASF has a plan for how the dollars/bids would work. Because if the teams that always get paid Worlds bids on the large gym ticket didn't have all those dozens of little gyms to pay their way with their oft-ridiculed "they don't deserve to be here" At Large bids....would there be as many paid bids in D1? I suppose USASF would just continue to take the money from the D2 side, wherein the real Worlds profit lies.

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They should make the same amount of money regardless. It's just teams with Paid bids have part of it paid for by the company they got their bid from. So it may not come out of their pocket but it's still getting to the USASF, just coming from the EPs instead of the parents. So (hypothetically) D1/D2 shouldn't affect how bids are given out or how much money they make.

cheernerd5678 said:

They should make the same amount of money regardless. It's just teams with Paid bids have part of it paid for by the company they got their bid from. So it may not come out of their pocket but it's still getting to the USASF, just coming from the EPs instead of the parents. So (hypothetically) D1/D2 shouldn't affect how bids are given out or how much money they make.

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That's true. But what about the thousands of people that come to see their kids compete? I think there is going to be quite a lopsided division of numbers there. But, the impact of that is based on my assumption that USASF gets a cut of the profit from the Mouse. I could be wrong.

Also, if the EPs had to or chose to split their bids between D1 and D2 in proportion to their customer base, wouldn't that cut the numbers of paid bids for D1 teams significantly? I'm guessing it wasn't the plan to continue to offer the same number of bids for D1 Worlds that they do today. There aren't enough teams to use them.

Questions that we maybe should consider as part of this discussion?

TheUltimateFan said:

That's true. But what about the thousands of people that come to see their kids compete? I think there is going to be quite a lopsided division of numbers there. But, the impact of that is based on my assumption that USASF gets a cut of the profit from the Mouse. I could be wrong.

Also, if the EPs had to or chose to split their bids between D1 and D2 in proportion to their customer base, wouldn't that cut the numbers of paid bids for D1 teams significantly? I'm guessing it wasn't the plan to continue to offer the same number of bids for D1 Worlds that they do today. There aren't enough teams to use them.

Questions that we maybe should consider as part of this discussion?

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Personally, I hope they keep the rest of the competitions the same. Just do D1 and D2 at Worlds. The small gyms are already getting bids, so they don't need special bids allotted for them. So I think the people who should be at Worlds will get there, and that's where they could split the divisions. Just at Worlds and not in the rest of the process (bid comps, etc). I hope that they don't split into D1 and D2 at all comps, and I really hope they don't designate X number of paids to D2 and X number to D1.... If you earn a paid you earn a paid, and you shouldn't be given one just because they HAD to give one to a D2/D1 team and you happened to be there.
I think that if a D2 gets a paid bid, they should have the opportunity to move up (only if they choose to though). We shouldn't restrict the teams who are small and can compete with the big gyms, but we shouldn't let anyone choose to go D1 just because.

cheernerd5678 said:

Personally, I hope they keep the rest of the competitions the same. Just do D1 and D2 at Worlds. The small gyms are already getting bids, so they don't need special bids allotted for them. So I think the people who should be at Worlds will get there, and that's where they could split the divisions. Just at Worlds and not in the rest of the process (bid comps, etc). I hope that they don't split into D1 and D2 at all comps, and I really hope they don't designate X number of paids to D2 and X number to D1.... If you earn a paid you earn a paid, and you shouldn't be given one just because they HAD to give one to a D2/D1 team and you happened to be there.
I think that if a D2 gets a paid bid, they should have the opportunity to move up (only if they choose to though). We shouldn't restrict the teams who are small and can compete with the big gyms, but we shouldn't let anyone choose to go D1 just because.

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I must not be getting this. If D2 teams are allowed to voluntarily compete up to D1, how have we changed anything that exists today except to give name and title to the practices that already prevail? Teams that are true D2 will continue to compete up to D1, just so they can say "I take my teams to Worlds". They'll continue to take athletes from their even smaller brethren using this technique, but they won't win, place or show at Worlds. Their athletes will continue to decide that the only way they can be a winner in any playing field is to move across the country to a large gym. And we remain exactly in the same position where we are today.

Maybe if the ability to move up was limited by some criteria as others have suggested - placing at a certain level in competitions or some other way of proving they could reasonably 'compete with the big boys' - it might work. But with this much complexity, is it even worth it?

TheUltimateFan said:

I must not be getting this. If D2 teams are allowed to voluntarily compete up to D1, how have we changed anything that exists today except to give name and title to the practices that already prevail? Teams that are true D2 will continue to compete up to D1, just so they can say "I take my teams to Worlds". They'll continue to take athletes from their even smaller brethren using this technique, but they won't win, place or show at Worlds. Their athletes will continue to decide that the only way they can be a winner in any playing field is to move across the country to a large gym. And we remain exactly in the same position where we are today.

Maybe if the ability to move up was limited by some criteria as others have suggested - placing at a certain level in competitions or some other way of proving they could reasonably 'compete with the big boys' - it might work. But with this much complexity, is it even worth it?

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That's what I mean - only let them compete up if they get a paid bid, or medaled at Worlds the year prior. Otherwise they have to stay. B/c if you can get a paid, you can probably compete with the big dogs (since you probably did for the bid) or if you medaled at Worlds you can choose to

cheernerd5678 said:

That's what I mean - only let them compete up if they get a paid bid, or medaled at Worlds the year prior. Otherwise they have to stay. B/c if you can get a paid, you can probably compete with the big dogs (since you probably did for the bid) or if you medaled at Worlds you can choose to

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Ahhh, THAT'S what I missed. Thanks!

So, a D2 team would have to get a paid bid in the current season, or would have had to have placed in the top 3-5 or so in D2 in the year prior to elect to compete D1 the following season. Got it. That should work!