All-Star Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

newcheerdad said:

This is the point.

I've listened to this discussion for a while now, and haven't really weighed in because I wasn't sure how to put my thoughts together. But basically, the issue at hand here isn't small gym vs. big gym - it's elite gym vs. everyone else.

The argument I made right from the get-go is that there are probably 50-75 gyms that can legitimately compete for major championships (i.e., Worlds, NCA, CheerSport, etc.). And then there's everyone else. As long as this stratification exists, you're going to constantly have issues where the elite gyms get stronger and the rest of the pack suffers because they simply cannot compete at that level.

And this isn't necessarily a business issue. There's a reason some colleges have FCS football teams instead of FBS, why their athletics will be Division 2 instead of Division 1. And it's not always that the Division 2 school is bad, or poorly run - it's that they simply don't have the resources and talent base to compete at the higher level.

Like it or not, that's the reality of cheer right now.

So guess what? Rather than just telling these programs to just "try harder" or "do a better job with their business", maybe it's time we realize that we need to have like competing against like.

Does that mean I like the Division 1/2 structure being proposed? Not really. In a perfect world, I'd still have Worlds but limit participation to "qualified gyms". Because Ashley hit on it - at some point, the talent pool thins out dramatically. A bad level 5 team isn't going to be do appreciably better in Division 2 the way this is structured. Perhaps that team shouldn't be competing level 5 at all, and somebody needs to save that gym from themselves.

Just like you can't have your local community college schedule a football game against the University of Texas, maybe we need to admit that Craptastic All-Stars can't compete against Senior Elite.* And that the real answer is to have a viable, year-end competition for everyone else rather than trying to jam everyone - regardless of ability level - into Worlds.

*Eh, who am I kidding? CAS forever.

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newcheerdad said:

This is the point.

I've listened to this discussion for a while now, and haven't really weighed in because I wasn't sure how to put my thoughts together. But basically, the issue at hand here isn't small gym vs. big gym - it's elite gym vs. everyone else.

The argument I made right from the get-go is that there are probably 50-75 gyms that can legitimately compete for major championships (i.e., Worlds, NCA, CheerSport, etc.). And then there's everyone else. As long as this stratification exists, you're going to constantly have issues where the elite gyms get stronger and the rest of the pack suffers because they simply cannot compete at that level.

And this isn't necessarily a business issue. There's a reason some colleges have FCS football teams instead of FBS, why their athletics will be Division 2 instead of Division 1. And it's not always that the Division 2 school is bad, or poorly run - it's that they simply don't have the resources and talent base to compete at the higher level.

Like it or not, that's the reality of cheer right now.

So guess what? Rather than just telling these programs to just "try harder" or "do a better job with their business", maybe it's time we realize that we need to have like competing against like.

Does that mean I like the Division 1/2 structure being proposed? Not really. In a perfect world, I'd still have Worlds but limit participation to "qualified gyms". Because Ashley hit on it - at some point, the talent pool thins out dramatically. A bad level 5 team isn't going to be do appreciably better in Division 2 the way this is structured. Perhaps that team shouldn't be competing level 5 at all, and somebody needs to save that gym from themselves.

Just like you can't have your local community college schedule a football game against the University of Texas, maybe we need to admit that Craptastic All-Stars can't compete against Senior Elite.* And that the real answer is to have a viable, year-end competition for everyone else rather than trying to jam everyone - regardless of ability level - into Worlds.

*Eh, who am I kidding? CAS forever.

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Coach Troy said:

Worlds is NOT College football....who doesn't even have a true "national champion" because.......wait for it......a computer and some polls decide who is qualified and who is not. And now that is what the USASF is saying they are going to do...they will be the BCS and decide who is Mega and who is Craptastic......
Well my opinion is that STINKS!!!!

Worlds is supposed to be our Olympics....
In the Olympics countries like USA(Cheer Extreme), China(Cheer Athletics), Russia(Cali....because everyone hates the Russians LOL) are the favorites because of their size and resources....however Uganda, Jamaica, Lithuania, etc. still have to compete together with them. And while the medal count will always be in the big guys favor....every once in a while the awards stand has a few new faces and that is the Joy of competition. The athletes have pride in themselves for making it there, they train and compete hard, they meet athletes from all over and share their love of the sport.

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newcheerdad said:

The argument I made right from the get-go is that there are probably 50-75 gyms that can legitimately compete for major championships (i.e., Worlds, NCA, CheerSport, etc.). And then there's everyone else. As long as this stratification exists, you're going to constantly have issues where the elite gyms get stronger and the rest of the pack suffers because they simply cannot compete at that level.

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p.o.k. said:

Who will be the judge of "qualified" gyms? What is the criteria? Lets not make the sport more subjective then it is already or where a name can sometimes precede performance.

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newcheerdad said:

The criteria doesn't have to be particularly subjective. Base it on past performance at major competitions. If you're one of the top-75 gyms at Worlds, NCA, Cheersport, etc. - then you're eligible to be in Division 1.

If not, then you're not, and your goal should be to dominate Division 2. At the end of the year, if you're one of the top-five teams in Division 2, you have the right to move up to Division 1 and replace one of the bottom-five teams in that division.

And you base this ranking on the entire gym, not just the Worlds' teams, although Worlds' teams and their performances there would be weighted more than, say, winning the Podunk Regional. If I had a free night or two, which I never do, I could easily come up with a starting rubric for ranking teams and gyms, and I'm pretty sure that once you got past gym 50 or so the drop-off would become pretty significant.

I know the initial reaction is coming - "oooh, that's hard" and "the maths" and "is that fair to gyms that don't have 20 teams". But you have to have some kind of criteria beyond a certain number of kids in your program to determine whether a gym can be successful in the elite category, and past performance is the only non-subjective way to do it.

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BlueCat said:

Are there other sports where 50-75 different programs are competitive at their World Championship?

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Coach Troy said:

Like is said the new BCS

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newcheerdad said:

I'd argue that in every major league sports, every team has a reasonable chance to win. I know, the Kansas City Royals aren't winning the World Series anytime soon, but they are a major league team with major league facilities that - in theory - can compete with other major league teams. But there are many factors - a common revenue structure being the primary one - that go in that - and the more the playing field is leveled financially the more parity you see in the sport.

In college sports? Yeah, I'd argue that the top-50 men's basketball teams could legitimately compete for an NCAA championship - if you're a top-five team from a power conference or an elite mid-major like Butler, then you can catch fire and win six games in a row to win the whole thing. But I'd also argue that past when you get past the power conferences and maybe the top-tier of mid-majors there's a significant dropoff. Much the same thing exists in college football - sure, sometimes a 1-AA team rises up and beats Michigan, but that's a big story because it rarely happens.

In youth sports, you don't have a salary cap. It's basically dog-eat-dog, and the gyms with the most money, tradition and influence are going to get the best coaches and athletes. And what happens is that those gyms will continue to get richer - and yes, they're getting richer because they've done something right and are doing something right. Nobody begrudges them their success.

What I'm suggesting is that those powerful, successful gyms are in a class of their own. And if they are, then perhaps they need to compete exclusively against other teams in that class.

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