All-Star Standard Team Size: 24

King · Sep 8, 2013

This is a discussion @Andre and I get into every once in a while. Having a set standard one team size. Thinking about the champions league and a lot of the issues I see they are gonna have having a set team size could fix a lot of this.

Every time a division has a different size (small and large) you cut in half the amount of teams that would compete in that division. As well scoring has to drastically change because there are little to no set expectations. I think there is something around 63 divisions because of all the sized and cross multiplications. That's a lot of divisions. What does having all those divisions mean? Mega events get really large because you are guaranteed competition and small niche events will stick around for public practice but you are probably combining some divisions to find competition. The middle tier event now goes away because that size require travel and expenses, but no one wants to pay the same amount of money for one team in their division.

So, the answer is make all team sizes max 24. Have an all girl, small coed (5 boys max) and large coed (12 boys max). By doing that the amount of competition that exists would grow. Also competitions like the champions league become a lot more feasible. While everyone will enjoy seeing their favorite teams compete, from a scoring standpoint that thing is gonna be a hot mess.

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cupieqt · Sep 8, 2013

Would you be allowed to compete with less? Bc I'm gonna have to combine a few teams to have 24. That'll put a big wrench in my tumbling requirements for certain teams. Or I just won't be able to offer those teams (ouch).

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King · Sep 8, 2013

cupieqt said:
Would you be allowed to compete with less? Bc I'm gonna have to combine a few teams to have 24. That'll put a big wrench in my tumbling requirements for certain teams. Or I just won't be able to offer those teams (ouch).

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Of course.

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kristenthegreat · Sep 8, 2013

Not sure we're quite ready for that yet. I'm definitely for cutting down large senior to 30 and making medium max 24 (for level 5). Cut down level 1-4 to 30 as well. Small steps might work better. You might have less shifting to big gyms if you were realistic about whether or not you'd make the cut.

MissCongeniality · Sep 8, 2013

Fewer divisions means fewer 1st places and fewer "national champions"!!!!! No you can't! (Sarcasm)

CGAcheer · Sep 8, 2013

my guess is that every big gym would be against this, because they would end up with teams in the same gym competing against each other.

If you have 50 Senior 2 athletes its nice to be able to make a large and a small vs only being able to take 24 and then moving the other 26 down or up which would then create problems trying to make that team.

768 (I think) is the largest a gym could be without overlapping teams and that is if you have a perfect distribution of your numbers vs the over 1700 that I think you can have now

CGAcheer · Sep 8, 2013

and small gyms would be against it because they wouldn't want their teams of 10-16 competing against teams of 24

King · Sep 8, 2013

CGAcheer said:
my guess is that every big gym would be against this, because they would end up with teams in the same gym competing against each other.

If you have 50 Senior 2 athletes its nice to be able to make a large and a small vs only being able to take 24 and then moving the other 26 down or up which would then create problems trying to make that team.

768 (I think) is the largest a gym could be without overlapping teams and that is if you have a perfect distribution of your numbers vs the over 1700 that I think you can have now

CGAcheer said:
and small gyms would be against it because they wouldn't want their teams of 10-16 competing against teams of 24

I honestly don't see why it is bad for a gym to have two teams in the same division. Gymnastics gyms coach kids that compete against each other all the time. As well isn't there a gym already doing this in a Worlds division? That is the highest level.

As for side if there is ONE set team size then ratios of skills and difficulty scoring (not creativity scoring) would be much easier to figure out. The longer cheerleading goes the more we approach one team size anyway.

drewpate · Sep 8, 2013

While I do agree a lot of divisions simply have way to little competition, but this would increase some divisions to an impossible too judge size. We've already proven that in big divisions at worlds judging is biased towards later performing teams. Now imagine combining the 6 senior age divisions into 3. It would be a scoring nightmare IMO.

King · Sep 8, 2013

drewpate said:
While I do agree a lot of divisions simply have way to little competition, but this would increase some divisions to an impossible too judge size. We've already proven that in big divisions at worlds judging is biased towards later performing teams. Now imagine combining the 6 senior age divisions into 3. It would be a scoring nightmare IMO.

The biased comes from the judging being flawed. You should never have people judge objective and subjective parts of a routine on the fly at the same time.

CGAcheer · Sep 8, 2013

king said:
I honestly don't see why it is bad for a gym to have two teams in the same division. Gymnastics gyms coach kids that compete against each other all the time. As well isn't there a gym already doing this in a Worlds division? That is the highest level.

As for side if there is ONE set team size then ratios of skills and difficulty scoring (not creativity scoring) would be much easier to figure out. The longer cheerleading goes the more we approach one team size anyway.

I don't think any gyms are running the same division out of the same location.

Having been in a gym that competed against itself at one competition, it was a gymnastics gym with only two teams, but with different coaches. It was a mess and I started my gym as a reaction to that disaster. We are a program, a team of teams. Cheer is all about team and unity, it's what separates us from dance and gymnastics.

Also if you are not a huge gym but big enough to have 2 teams of similar age and skill. Us for example, we have four coaches and all of us are involved with all of the teams, so we would be coaching against ourselves. Do you make 1 good team and one not as good, do you try to split the talent? Imagine the cheer mama drama. And yes you already have to make that decision with a large and small team but at least they aren't competing against each other

SparkleSpankies · Sep 9, 2013

I still don't see a problem with small and large, however, I think 36 is too many. I agree with @king that it's ok for gyms to have 2 teams in the same division.

ScottyB · Sep 9, 2013

Agreed! On the same note of Small Gym/Large Gym divisions, this would couple with it nicely. In the Olympics they don't offer a small country division and a large country division, everyone competes against each other in that sport or category

King · Sep 9, 2013

ScottyB said:
Agreed! On the same note of Small Gym/Large Gym divisions, this would couple with it nicely. In the Olympics they don't offer a small country division and a large country division, everyone competes against each other in that sport or category

Standardized sizes would increase competition. Long term it makes the most sense for the sport. (notice I said sport NOT industry)

redshark · Sep 9, 2013

I've been at a gym that could easily field 3 teams in the same division in the same division if there was a standardized team size (in fact I think they have in small youth 1). They were divided by skill sets, though all were level 1, and usually didn't all go to the same competitions but I think it worked well. Each team is taught to be proud of themselves if they have a good performance, so it was a plus for these kids to do well and be proud of themselves, and get to be proud of another team from their gym for winning. And at the same level, it's quite possible for the "not as good" to surpass the one that started with more advanced skills.
I really like watching the contrast of small and large teams, but I do agree that it would be a move in a positive direction for the sport of all-star cheer. Some divisions will be absolutely HUGE though!

All-Star Standard Team Size: 24

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