All-Star Age Changes?

[cheer25mom]

Double posting, but surprised they were not clearer on the verbiage of "program" and whether or not that means more than one worlds team per physical mailing address location or more than one for entire program.

I would think it would be the same definition used for D1/ D2 eligibility, same ownership, brand, financial ties, etc.


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[Megreg]

So, it's ok to have separate div. for L, M & S but not XS?? 7 athlete diff. on all levels except S which was 20 and under. Can we please remember these athletes are kids and all of them work just as hard as those from larger programs. To state that it dilutes Worlds just because they made a division for teams that can't field a team of 20 or more due to either geographical, economical or other factors does NOT in any way dilute an athletes ability. If so, then there shouldn't be any divisions and everyone should compete as one division. It's disgusting what others might have to say about a team with 10 amazing level 5 athletes who will compete as XS against other XS teams and whomever wins a globe doesn't deserve it. Again, 7 athlete difference from small to medium to large. So to make an XS division actually makes sense and still has the biggest gap in athlete numbers. This also allows smaller programs to actually stay in business and give those kids with the same dreams a chance to compete on the same playing field. Not every athlete has the opportunity to go to a large program, or want to live with a host family away from their own just so they can have the same opportunity to hopefully win at Worlds. Let's be honest here, most small gyms with level 5 teams are looked down upon and viewed as not real competition. There were over 100 small AG & Coed teams at Worlds. But only 10 of each are ever 'recognized' as contenders at Worlds and most if not all of those are from mega gyms. Have some respect people - these are kids...

 

[Keep_Believing]

My opinion (as if it matters LOL) Anyone who gets a bid can go to Worlds. They get the experience and USASF still makes all their money, but you must have a minimum of 110 out of 150 point to move on. Even X small teams must meet this score to go to finals. If only a few make finals that's okay. Finals at Worlds should be prestigious.

 

[njallday]

So, it's ok to have separate div. for L, M & S but not XS?? 7 athlete diff. on all levels except S which was 20 and under. Can we please remember these athletes are kids and all of them work just as hard as those from larger programs. To state that it dilutes Worlds just because they made a division for teams that can't field a team of 20 or more due to either geographical, economical or other factors does NOT in any way dilute an athletes ability. If so, then there shouldn't be any divisions and everyone should compete as one division. It's disgusting what others might have to say about a team with 10 amazing level 5 athletes who will compete as XS against other XS teams and whomever wins a globe doesn't deserve it. Again, 7 athlete difference from small to medium to large. So to make an XS division actually makes sense and still has the biggest gap in athlete numbers. This also allows smaller programs to actually stay in business and give those kids with the same dreams a chance to compete on the same playing field. Not every athlete has the opportunity to go to a large program, or want to live with a host family away from their own just so they can have the same opportunity to hopefully win at Worlds. Let's be honest here, most small gyms with level 5 teams are looked down upon and viewed as not real competition. There were over 100 small AG & Coed teams at Worlds. But only 10 of each are ever 'recognized' as contenders at Worlds and most if not all of those are from mega gyms. Have some respect people - these are kids...

I was unaware I started a war on small gyms and I was so disgusting, so I guess I'll try to explain one more time and then I promise I'll give up. I am against adding more and more divisions at worlds, always have been. I'd be happy with one all girl and one coed division, period, regardless of size. I am not against small gyms or trying to kill them; on the contrary I wouldn't mind some ultra-mega gyms being knocked off the pedestal a bit. But if we are going to add more divisions to the World Championship of cheerleading, then it should be just another division like all of the others; there should not be rules placed on it. If rules need to be placed on it, then there should be a separate competition like D2 Summit for smaller gyms or it should not be included at worlds - not because I hate small gyms, but because it is the most "prestigious" (well, supposed to be) competition of our sport and blocking potential competition in the division is not something that should happen at a competition of that caliber. In the example given above about school competitions and how it is not fair for a school of 4000 to go against a school of 400, I don't disagree - but those schools aren't competing in the same tournaments; there is a separate championship for DI/DII/DIII schools. If you all want to go to the same worlds, than I do not believe there should be rules preventing competitors from a division.

I know CJA Bombshells would not fit the criteria because they were their gym's second worlds team (and I think they had 15?), but they are actually the perfect example of why I am against the stipulations put on the XS division; smart coaching and smart choreography can get you a globe. They didn't need to prohibit who can and cannot compete against them to get there.

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As an aside, I do not currently see a rule on this division with regards to actual gym size, so what's to stop a "big" gym that only had one worlds team to begin with to not replace their graduating seniors they lost or only put the absolute greatest athletes on their XS team and go dominate that division too? Because you know it will happen and we'll be crying about that later. If it's supposed to be a division to help small gyms, there should actually be more regulations. If not, again, it should just be a new division just like all the others.

 

[CLynn]

I know CJA Bombshells would not fit the criteria because they were their gym's second worlds team (and I think they had 15?), but they are actually the perfect example of why I am against the stipulations put on the XS division; smart coaching and smart choreography can get you a globe. They didn't need to prohibit who can and cannot compete against them to get there.

Interesting you use them as an example, because as I see it they are really hurt by the extra small rules. Now they have to add more to be 22, can't go extra small bc of Gunz. I am sure many fit that criteria...

 

[njallday]

Interesting you use them as an example, because as I see it they are really hurt by the extra small rules. Now they have to add more to be 22, can't go extra small bc of Gunz. I am sure many fit that criteria...

Of course only time will tell, but I don't see them being hurt. They'd continue business as usual and keep competing in small senior against the same competitors who already had more athletes than them. They don't have to add more team members just because small is now up to 22 members.

 

[luv2cheer92]

Interesting you use them as an example, because as I see it they are really hurt by the extra small rules. Now they have to add more to be 22, can't go extra small bc of Gunz. I am sure many fit that criteria...

You can be small with 15. You can actually be small with less than 15, too.

 

[BlueCat]

It is possible to not want more and more divisions and specialized, limited categories at Worlds without it automatically meaning that you hate athletes at small gyms and want to belittle their efforts. I also don't think that if one of the big gyms wants to enter a division, that means they are "abusing" the system.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't see adding more and more divisions and more and more "winners" as generally being helpful to industry. Why stop at 14 divisions? Why not 16 or 20 or 50? What I liked about Worlds was that, of the 1,000s of cheer events, it was the one that (for the most part) throws everyone into the same ring and lets them fight it out.

I will give them props for one thing. The "can only compete there if you aren't in another division" is an admittedly clever way to keep the more populated gyms out. It achieves what they really want without having to call it what it is.

I get the desire to have a division that fits your situation. I try to see things from other size/type of gyms' perspective and I can't swear that if our scenario were different, we wouldn't be singing a different tune. We tend to want what we think is in our teams, athletes, and coaches best interest. It frustrates me that the different types of gyms are getting so polarized when we share so much in common and mostly want the same things.

 

[quitthedrama]

I would be fine with the addition of the XS division if we didn't already have ratio rules in place, but when a team of 14 with 3 stunt groups can get the same amount of credit as a team of 20 with 5 stunt groups, I see no reason for adding the division. With the ratio rules in place, there is no competitive disadvantage to having less athletes than the max number allowed, so therefor, what is the reasoning to add a division other than to give smaller gyms the opportunity to do better at worlds?

 

[BlueCat]

3 other thoughts:

1. I am curious what the folks on the rules committee who approved the XS divisions under the stipulation that it was NOT going to be a Worlds division think now. (I don't have any inside knowledge, just curious)

2. This is our 3rd pretty major change to the age grid and divisions in the last month or so. What else is coming and why in the world can't they figure a way to get a grid set in like January and stick to it? Surely no one thinks that changing it around now is ideal.

3. Anyone who thought that the USASF simply does the bidding of the the mega-gyms should know that this latest round of musical age grids was not approved by the Super-Secret Evil Big Gym Cartel.

 

[Keep_Believing]

I wonder if seeing how big D2 Summit has grown has opened USAF eyes to the $$$ to be made from D2 gyms? There seems to be unexpected swift and sudden changes taking place.

 

[MissCongeniality]

3 other thoughts:

1. I am curious what the folks on the rules committee who approved the XS divisions under the stipulation that it was NOT going to be a Worlds division think now. (I don't have any inside knowledge, just curious)

2. This is our 3rd pretty major change to the age grid and divisions in the last month or so. What else is coming and why in the world can't they figure a way to get a grid set in like January and stick to it? Surely no one thinks that changing it around now is ideal.

3. Anyone who thought that the USASF simply does the bidding of the the mega-gyms should know that this latest round of musical age grids was not approved by the Super-Secret Evil Big Gym Cartel.

I am laughing at #3.... Some of the powerful coaches/owners/long time loud voices at USASF are definitely (currently) smaller program. I can just see the ground littered in thunder sticks on this latest "we decided to change it" decision.

It is sad because the "everyone needs a trophy" mentality has become the fight song for programs in order to stay in business. The thing is quite honestly it dilutes the value of the win. National Champion? who cares? World Champion? Dime a dozen. Our kids do NOT all have to be winners to be successful. It used to be that competing your best was what mattered. Now to stay afloat gyms need "titles"... and we sure wouldn't want any gyms "failing" because they don't have titles. (I know that sounds harsh... I don't mean it that way... but THAT is the way the real world works. Not everyone is a winner and sometimes great people go belly up in business through forces beyond their control)

I understand how frustrating it must be to want to be a competitor on the Worlds level and feel like you can never quite get there or field a team that can go head to head against the big dogs. But OMG when you do and you win and you weren't "supposed to"... trust me ... it is all that much more rewarding. Spoon feeding new divisions for every possibility is not the way to do it. Oh look another senior with a 4.5 GPA ... snooooozeeeeeeee

 

[Helen uk uni cheer]

I am laughing at #3.... Some of the powerful coaches/owners/long time loud voices at USASF are definitely (currently) smaller program. I can just see the ground littered in thunder sticks on this latest "we decided to change it" decision.

It is sad because the "everyone needs a trophy" mentality has become the fight song for programs in order to stay in business. The thing is quite honestly it dilutes the value of the win. National Champion? who cares? World Champion? Dime a dozen. Our kids do NOT all have to be winners to be successful. It used to be that competing your best was what mattered. Now to stay afloat gyms need "titles"... and we sure wouldn't want any gyms "failing" because they don't have titles. (I know that sounds harsh... I don't mean it that way... but THAT is the way the real world works. Not everyone is a winner and sometimes great people go belly up in business through forces beyond their control)

I understand how frustrating it must be to want to be a competitor on the Worlds level and feel like you can never quite get there or field a team that can go head to head against the big dogs. But OMG when you do and you win and you weren't "supposed to"... trust me ... it is all that much more rewarding. Spoon feeding new divisions for every possibility is not the way to do it. Oh look another senior with a 4.5 GPA ... snooooozeeeeeeee

I agree with you about the everyone needs a trophy mentality

In the world of ballroom only the top 6-7 get a trophy or even a mention depending on the size of the final. There could be over 100 couples there and only 6 get called out and then you find out your fate the next day when the marks come out. It works. It makes people work harder. In my 2 years of dance I don't have a single trophy but it has made me be a better dancer and learn to strive for the best and work on the little things. I think the same could be applied for cheer like the top 5 only in a division get a trophy.
Also xs division may be good but there are too many divisions it would be better even if they have this division to only take teams with a qualify score but I don't see that happening any time soon

 

[Helen uk uni cheer]

Back when I competed in dance, it was possible (in the provincial competitions) to be the only person/group/whatever in a category and not get first or even place. If the adjudicator did not feel as though the performance warranted first place (or any place) then it would be possible to get 2nd or 3rd out of 1, or even 'honorable mention'. It worked as motivation to not have to tell people we got 3rd when we were the only ones in the category. Something similar could work for cheer, maybe a minimum score type deal that some people have suggested.

BCA (british cheer association) used to only announce and give trophies to 3rd 2nd and 1st for youth and up but dont know if they still do it

 

[IEA.Elizabeth]

3 other thoughts:

1. I am curious what the folks on the rules committee who approved the XS divisions under the stipulation that it was NOT going to be a Worlds division think now. (I don't have any inside knowledge, just curious)

2. This is our 3rd pretty major change to the age grid and divisions in the last month or so. What else is coming and why in the world can't they figure a way to get a grid set in like January and stick to it? Surely no one thinks that changing it around now is ideal.

3. Anyone who thought that the USASF simply does the bidding of the the mega-gyms should know that this latest round of musical age grids was not approved by the Super-Secret Evil Big Gym Cartel.

I have heard that XS all girl and coed will be a division at worlds however the only way you can compete in it is if you win the bid competing in that division and it's the only team from the program that competes at worlds...honestly this takes always the purpose of worlds you are suppose to compete against the best why can't Big Gym A compete against Small gym B


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