All-Star All Star Prep

Welcome to our Cheerleading Community

Members see FEWER ads... join today!

Dec 28, 2009
3,062
11,581
Wanted to start a friendly discussion on all-star prep, based on some of the things that have been discussed with other coaches.
First, for those of you that are considering doing the prep division, do you like or dislike the 2 minute rule? The no crossovers rule? Why?
Second, we obviously do not want every single division offered, because a small co-ed level 5 is not a true prep team. What divisions would you like to see? What divisions make the most sense?
Third, the big concern is with tumbling. On a prep team, you could have a wide range of skills since you will probably have new kids mixed in with kids that have cheered before, maybe on a pop warner or youth league team. What is the best option to allow children to compete at their true level (which may be level 3 stunting but level 1 tumbling) but allow the prep division to grow?

Just wanted to start a little discussion, since the talks I've been a part of so far have been really awesome. Keep in mind we are talking about true prep teams here... Composed of kids that cannot afford or do not want to make the full commitment to all-star, but want a small taste of it. :)

Ready... GO.
 
I copied and pasted my response on that thread..

I do believe that USASF should at least take a stance on who can compete as what. It is sort of laughable that there is no regulation about it. Especially when at smaller, local competitions there are combinations of all of the types competing at the same event. Personally, I think that rec teams should be teams that are formed for purpose of both competing AND sideline. I think that you should have to take the floor with the same roster you started your sideline season with (give or take...), and you shouldn't be able to start practicing a routine before September. I also think that it should be capped to 2.1 for youth and below- stunts to level 2, tumbling to level 1., and junior/senior to maybe 3.2. The caveat to this for the rec teams should be that if you hold separate tryouts for your winter comp team or you remove any kids, they need to go allstar prep. Children's recreation leagues are supposed to be all-inclusive to the children in the area they serve.

I think Allstar Prep should be any team that is put together with the sole purpose of competing, and can't start before September. This can include true allstar half-year teams. They are prep teams as well, and often have first year kids on them, which could almost work to the advantage of competitive rec programs in that the rec program will often retain kids for a few years if they don't move to allstars, and most half-year team kids at an allstar gym will move up the next year to full year teams. There should be no full-year allstar crossovers allowed for either rec or prep. I think an across-the-board cap at level 3 is reasonable. They are "prep" for a reason.

Why do I think that it should be regulated? To protect everyone involved. It isn't fair to the rec teams when allstar & half-year teams drop down into their division. I don't want to see the prep program ruined by unscrupulous gym owners who decide to sandbag their half-year teams with full year kids. And I want allstar gyms to be treated fairly, and stop being lumped in with rec programs that call themselves allstar when it comes to statistics, insurance, etc. I am in favor of capping the skills that can be taught, or thrown by teams because quite frankly a lot of the teams in those divisions don't have the resources to be teaching them safely. I would rather see rec teams with beastly level 1 & 2 stunts in the air than looking all shaky because they are trying to keep up with the allstar teams that drop down to rec.
 
Sorry, I should have been clear about what I was getting at. We want regulations, and we want this to be fair but different than all-star.

So, what about these things as far as the prep division goes:

-Only a handful of divisions... Maybe just a basic youth 1 and 2, junior 2, senior 2 and 3. In these divisions, stunt rules apply. Tumbling rules do not (say what?!).

-Tumbling rules follow level 3 and under for all divisions. So for the 7 year old youth league kid with a tuck-you go ahead as throw it. Show us what you've got. But, that ONE kid with a tuck does not dictate the entire squad, and does not allow them to throw the stunts they shouldn't be throwing. Unlike regular all-star, stunting will dictate the level.

-Standing and running tumbling is one score. Since you only have two minutes, no need to have each kid throw 4 passes to get points.

-Technique is valued more than skills. So, let's say Susie wants to do her tuck, and it's pretty, and the rest of the team has perfect cartwheels. Those cartwheels mean something now.. They are not devalued because it's not a backhandspring, and kids can throw what they have and really show off.

Keep in mind these are only ideas! Thoughts? What will it take to make this a successful division that is NOT all-star, but allows us to be a stepping stone into all-star?
 
Sorry, I should have been clear about what I was getting at. We want regulations, and we want this to be fair but different than all-star.

So, what about these things as far as the prep division goes:

-Only a handful of divisions... Maybe just a basic youth 1 and 2, junior 2, senior 2 and 3. In these divisions, stunt rules apply. Tumbling rules do not (say what?!).

-Tumbling rules follow level 3 and under for all divisions. So for the 7 year old youth league kid with a tuck-you go ahead as throw it. Show us what you've got. But, that ONE kid with a tuck does not dictate the entire squad, and does not allow them to throw the stunts they shouldn't be throwing. Unlike regular all-star, stunting will dictate the level.

-Standing and running tumbling is one score. Since you only have two minutes, no need to have each kid throw 4 passes to get points.

-Technique is valued more than skills. So, let's say Susie wants to do her tuck, and it's pretty, and the rest of the team has perfect cartwheels. Those cartwheels mean something now.. They are not devalued because it's not a backhandspring, and kids can throw what they have and really show off.

Keep in mind these are only ideas! Thoughts? What will it take to make this a successful division that is NOT all-star, but allows us to be a stepping stone into all-star?

Since stunt rules dictate the level, would you propose that there be a bottom age cap to avoid fetus flyers?
 
Since stunt rules dictate the level, would you propose that there be a bottom age cap to avoid fetus flyers?

Eh, probably not. It's a prep team, so I would assume that most gyms will only field one or two teams. This means for many gyms, they will be taking every person that comes through the door, and limiting the ages only makes it harder. If the focus is on technique instead of just throwing as many skills as possible, it would seem like it could easily happen that an older, more experienced flyer would beat out a little bit.

I guess I just envision prep as something fun and not as serious, and I think it's a direction cheer REALLY needs to go (at least in my area). People simply cannot afford regular all-star around here. This seems like a step in between for those people that cannot commit or afford it, but a step above normal sideline cheering.
 
-Tumbling rules follow level 3 and under for all divisions. So for the 7 year old youth league kid with a tuck-you go ahead as throw it. Show us what you've got. But, that ONE kid with a tuck does not dictate the entire squad, and does not allow them to throw the stunts they shouldn't be throwing. Unlike regular all-star, stunting will dictate the level.

This is how it used to be in Pop Warner before the levels were made. There were girls competing fulls against teams with round offs, but it was their cleanliness and stunting that really mattered. Yeah, the great tumbling was impressive and there was more you could do with it, but I feel like it mattered a LOT less than it does now.

I would love this though, my competitive rec team obviously does not have the tumbling skills to be competing level 3, but their stunting does. However, I would feel bad for the kids that DO have the tumbling skills and they don't get rewarded for them. What would be the incentive to go to tumbling at that point? We really recommend that our girls go to outside tumbling, but it's not required. We tell them that it will give us an edge, but if you took out the need for the more advanced skills, why would they even go when they could win just as easily with a pretty cartwheel?

The competitions we're going to only require 25% of the team to have the tumbling skills, so I feel like that's a step in the right direction.

I don't agree with the 2:00 guideline though. Like I said, we're a competitive rec team and most competitions allow us to compete rec, however if there's a competition that says you have to cheer for a team to be considered rec and we have to go all-star prep, what happens? We already have our music and it's 2:30, either we don't compete at that competition or we make our music 2:00 from the beginning meaning we have to cut out key elements of our routine, making it harder to compete at the other competitions.
 
I love your ideas. I definitely think that tumbling should not be as emphasized on score sheets as it is now.

I have an idea, and perhaps it is crazy... but hear me out. What if we attacked the universal score sheet problem not from the top (level 5/Worlds teams), as has been mentioned many, many times (and obviously rejected by EPs many, many times), but from the bottom, starting with this division? Look, it completely makes sense: here's a brand new division. It *has* to have new score sheets, because using the same scoring system for a 2:00 routine and a 2:30 just isn't feasible. This division probably isn't going to start out as a huge money maker in the first few years, but has the potential for tremendous growth. If we take the money out of the "my score sheet is better than your score sheet" argument, can we come up with something that works for all EPs?

I'm serious here - I think we could come up with an easily-understandable, universally-acceptable score sheet for this division. (So sorry to kind of go off track from the original intent of your thread!)
 
I love your ideas. I definitely think that tumbling should not be as emphasized on score sheets as it is now.

I have an idea, and perhaps it is crazy... but hear me out. What if we attacked the universal score sheet problem not from the top (level 5/Worlds teams), as has been mentioned many, many times (and obviously rejected by EPs many, many times), but from the bottom, starting with this division? Look, it completely makes sense: here's a brand new division. It *has* to have new score sheets, because using the same scoring system for a 2:00 routine and a 2:30 just isn't feasible. This division probably isn't going to start out as a huge money maker in the first few years, but has the potential for tremendous growth. If we take the money out of the "my score sheet is better than your score sheet" argument, can we come up with something that works for all EPs?

I'm serious here - I think we could come up with an easily-understandable, universally-acceptable score sheet for this division. (So sorry to kind of go off track from the original intent of your thread!)

No, I think you are totally on the right track. It's a great place to start, and it will need it's own scoresheet in the very near future.

As for why the incentive to tumble... I don't think any kid will simply never want to tumble because it's not required. Most kids want to show off and flip around as much as possible... In prep, there just simply isn't time to teach them if it is a half year team. This would make sure they could still throw things, without pressure of having to get skills in a month.

As far as rec teams, I guess I am envisioning the prep division as more all-star than rec. It's a stepping stone to regular all star instead of another place for rec teams to compete. Therefore, if a rec team wants to do all-star, they can simply go into the normal all-star division. If they aren't ready to hang, prep also has a place for them.
 
After going to the USASF meeting I was a little put off by All-Star Prep just because there were no regulations. It was put out there as "you tell us what you want and we'll offer it and go from there." After putting more thought into it, I think there is such a great market for it in my area. Of course the concern is that the kids from our full year teams would only want to do a half year version, that's why we've strayed from it in the past. But....I think the no crossovers and 2:00 time limit are great! All-Star prep should not include any kids that are on your full year teams. That defeats the purpose.

We have a ton of kids in our area who come through the gym but just can't afford it. They're so into it and have a great time but then they see the cost sheet and we never hear from them again. I could field 2-3 teams just from the kids we get in that can't afford it.

I do like how Justin put it at the USASF meeting when asked "how do we get our kids to want to do full year versus the half year?" He said that you have to make all-star prep so different from your full year teams that the full year kids don't want to do it. Whether that's only doing 4 competitions and making one be an away trip so they get the taste of cheering on other teams and being part of the gym in that aspect or if it is the uniforms.

I think there are so many great possibilites here and I know we'll be testing the waters come next season :)
 
I do like how Justin put it at the USASF meeting when asked "how do we get our kids to want to do full year versus the half year?" He said that you have to make all-star prep so different from your full year teams that the full year kids don't want to do it. Whether that's only doing 4 competitions and making one be an away trip so they get the taste of cheering on other teams and being part of the gym in that aspect or if it is the uniforms.


I think I mentioned this to Justin at USASF Chicago, but your paragraph made me think about this again.
Often, competitions are simply too expensive. For our half year team last year, they went to a Jamfest Nationals, simply because it was in town and on a weekend we needed. It was $125/kid, which is crazy for a half year, "cost-cutting" team. What about making the prep division cheaper, and giving them cheaper "gifts"? Instead of getting a huge trophy, they get a plaque. Big trophies and national champion jackets are saved for full year teams, and that is another incentive for people to join a regular all-star team instead of just prep.
 
I think I mentioned this to Justin at USASF Chicago, but your paragraph made me think about this again.
Often, competitions are simply too expensive. For our half year team last year, they went to a Jamfest Nationals, simply because it was in town and on a weekend we needed. It was $125/kid, which is crazy for a half year, "cost-cutting" team. What about making the prep division cheaper, and giving them cheaper "gifts"? Instead of getting a huge trophy, they get a plaque. Big trophies and national champion jackets are saved for full year teams, and that is another incentive for people to join a regular all-star team instead of just prep.
I don't know if marketing it as "just prep"...with the flip side being, the real deal with the real trophies and jackets is all-star. It feels divisive and belittling to the idea of a prep division. I am sure that is not your intention at all but if "prep" is a parents only option, I don't want it to feel some how "less than". Different is good...less than??? not so much. Not sure what the answer is but that approach is probably not a good one.
 
I don't know if marketing it as "just prep"...with the flip side being, the real deal with the real trophies and jackets is all-star. It feels divisive and belittling to the idea of a prep division. I am sure that is not your intention at all but if "prep" is a parents only option, I don't want it to feel some how "less than". Different is good...less than??? not so much. Not sure what the answer is but that approach is probably not a good one.

I get what you are saying, but do you know that with a cheaper competition cost it would make a difference? I could see people understanding that paying less means you are not getting the same prize. For some people, they would rather pay a cheaper competition fee than be in the running for a jacket. And should a prep team be able to get a "national champion" jacket? Why join all-star if you are already national champs? :)
 
Hey I think the whole National thing gets crazy as it is now. BUT if you can go to a competition in Kalamooza Cananda with 10 teams in attendance and get a Kalamooza National Championship Jacket....what's the difference? LOL but I get what you are saying, I am just not sure I agree it would be that much less if they didn't give out a trophy. I am confused about what this division is...I guess if you eliminated a National title it would be less enticing to sand bag and use cross-overs to win. Cheaper alternative sounds good...isn't that what a half-year team is?
 
I can tell you how we market it and have had a huge success! Our All Star Prep teams are 3 month teams. 3 months of practice, twice a week for an hour each. One local competition at the end of the 3 months and it's done. Then we start the next session the following month. In our planning meetings we thought of it like a football season or tee ball season. Most parents are used to that. Parents will take a small step because it's only 3 month commitment. Some will stay and some will move to full year program... Not ONE team kid has even asked about joining prep program. It's silly to them bc they see the real side of the sport; however, new parents don't get that side of the sport so they think it absurd to sign a 6 yr up for a full year commitment.

I think the usasf should regulate it more , but bc each region sees it as something different, they are letting the market set itself. I think the few guidelines like 2:00 min routines, no crossovers and hopefully capping the level will help preserve the idea of half year or 3 month teams.

Btw when we sit people up we let them know that they will be competing against other teams that might have been practicing longer than them so if they only care about "winning" then they need to join our full year program. Not one of them said they cared about winning, just a place for their kids to prove that they really like cheer enough to commit to a full year team.
 
My CP was involved in the first year of our gym's half-year competitive team. Out of all of the kids that continued the next year, only one stuck around for half-year. The rest (10 or 11 out of 16-ish) went on to the full-year teams. It was a great filter to get more kids into the full-year program. It is also an easy start to the financial obligations of a full year team. The tuition was $10 cheaper per month, but the trip fees were half of what the regular allstar teams paid. Once we realized we could do it financially, it was much easier to make the committment the next year to do full year allstar.

It was such a positive experience that my 5 year old is doing a half-year team this year, while my nine year old is on her second year of full year.
 
Back