Crazy ideas for improving the all-star industry

[ohkcheery]

The additional cost I was referring to come from having someone independent setup up the athlete accounts. If I, as a cheating coach, am in charge of putting the athlete I want on my team in the system, I can cheat just as I could now. If I, as a cheating kid, am in charge of putting myself in the system, I can still cheat.

Unless there is a way to independently verify the information during database/card creation we haven't done anything to address the problem.

The coach would not put an athlete in the system, nor would the athlete themself. I think there could be an "ID day" or something of the sort over the summer before the start of the season. At specific locations, forms, photos and anything else needing to accompany the ID for verification could be taken at that time. The athlete would need their own birth certificate and another photo ID to even get a card (school id, drivers license, etc.) unless they are too young for that (~4-6 year olds or younger). Coaches and athletes should have NO access to the system at all whatsoever other than at competitions when checking in and swiping cards. In fact, the card wouldn't even need to be specific to a team, though it could be listed on a profile and changed if necessary if you move gyms. If you list the wrong age/team/whatever on your card, you're going to lose out. A specific number of kids should be taken to the warmup area and no more than that. So if you bring the wrong kid on purpose and it's flagged, well that's your loss.. you either get minimal time to get the correct athlete, compete with one less, get a deduction, etc (whatever the penalty may be). To be even more sure about this with the "number" thing going on, as athletes come off the mat from competing, they could be asked their number to cross reference with the list of girls in the warm-up area. That's kind of extreme though..

 

[garretttt]

i dont like the restricting a team to only 15 males. A team should be allowed to have as many males as they want

 

[Deleted member 15]

I think there could be an "ID day" or something of the sort over the summer before the start of the season. At specific locations, forms, photos and anything else needing to accompany the ID for verification could be taken at that time. The athlete would need their own birth certificate and another photo ID to even get a card (school id, drivers license, etc.) unless they are too young for that (~4-6 year olds or younger).

How many locations/days would this take? Will they only be in major cities or come to more remote areas? How much space/personnel/time will it take to do this for major cities (ATL, DFW)? How much will it cost to cover more remote areas?

Is there a way to get an ID card if you start mid-season. Is the cost of getting it, travel included, reasonable?

If there are only a few locations we are asking a lot of families to travel to get IDs. This also means we will need larger venues and more staff and equipment to process everyone. If there are a lot of locations we need to hire and train the processing staff in many locations or have the same people travel around the country/world. Both of these options seem expensive.

Is it good for the future growth of the industry to add these costs to the mix before someone can compete at their first competition? Will the cost scare people away from giving All Stars a chance?

 

[BlueCat]

i dont like the restricting a team to only 15 males. A team should be allowed to have as many males as they want

I used to think that too. The realities of keeping the highest number of males possible in the sport long-term completely changed my mind. It is counter-intuitive, but I believe correct, that a per-team cap would increase overall participation and be much better for the sport in MANY ways.

 

[King]

I agree BlueCat. Just like how cutting back 10 scholarships to NCAA schools spread out the football talent and eventually allowed teams like Boise State and TCU to be extremely competitive in football.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I used to think that too. The realities of keeping the highest number of males possible in the sport long-term completely changed my mind. It is counter-intuitive, but I believe correct, that a per-team cap would increase overall participation and be much better for the sport in MANY ways.

BlueCat - I missed the dissertation. Do you mind giving the summary?

 

[BlueCat]

Summary which doesn't do the whole argument justice, but you get the jist:

Part A:
1. The impression is that teams with 22 or so guys are at a massive advantage over teams with "just" 12-14. It completely changes the tumbling, pyramids, tosses, and stunts.
2. Most gyms cannot even dream of getting anywhere NEAR that many guys, so they don't even attempt it.

Part B:
1. Guys are expensive to have on teams. They can RARELY pay full price, if anything. This is particularly true of guys number 14-22 in your recruiting process.
2. Not only would a 22/14 ratio M/F would be nearly impossible to make profitable - It would be nearly impossible for it not to lose a LARGE amount of money.
3. Result: Even gyms that could theoretically get to 22 guys if they tried, don't bother because they would lose too much money. (This is CA's situation.)

(Using it as a loss-leader sounds like a great plan initially to many gym owners, but it RARELY works that way.)

loss leader http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader

 

[Deleted member 15]

Summary which doesn't do the whole argument justice, but you get the jist:

Part A:
1. The impression is that teams with 22 or so guys are at a massive advantage over teams with "just" 12-14. It completely changes the tumbling, pyramids, tosses, and stunts.
2. Most gyms cannot even dream of getting anywhere NEAR that many guys, so they don't even attempt it.

Part B:
1. Guys are expensive to have on teams. They can RARELY pay full price, if anything. This is particularly true of guys number 14-22 in your recruiting process.
2. Not only would a 22/14 ratio M/F would be nearly impossible to make profitable - It would be nearly impossible for it not to lose a LARGE amount of money.
3. Result: Even gyms that could theoretically get to 22 guys if they tried, don't bother because they would lose too much money. (This is CA's situation.)

(Using it as a loss-leader sounds like a great plan initially to many gym owners, but it RARELY works that way.)

loss leader http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader

So the theory is limiting the number of guys to 10-15 will lead to more gyms trying to get coed teams because they would believe they could get enough guys to be competitive without breaking the bank.

Am I following you correctly?

 

[BlueCat]

Essentially, yes - that is a good summary of the main argument.

 

[ShoWStoppeR]

if i'm not mistaken, wasn't worlds originally just split between all girl and coed?
that's just one sign of growth in the industry, i think it would make alot of people angry if you start combining divisions, which is where i think that kind of goes hand in hand with your number 6, it kind of contradicts itself. if you want small teams and large teams to be scored different based on their size, then you wouldn't be able to combine divisions anyway. but i do like the idea of scoring, because frankly it is a big difference to throw 3 3 to doubles on a small team vs. a large, it's comparing apples to oranges. I don't like the idea of every team getting every score, I think that would be more hurtful than helpful in the long run. But I also do like the idea of condensing events because I think that will definitely help with the name of this sport, not to mention the financial aspect.
JMHO's though =]

 

[Deleted member 15]

Essentially, yes - that is a good summary of the main argument.

That sounds like a reasonable argument.

 

[Level5Mom]

I think there could be an "ID day" or something of the sort over the summer before the start of the season. At specific locations, forms, photos and anything else needing to accompany the ID for verification could be taken at that time. The athlete would need their own birth certificate and another photo ID to even get a card (school id, drivers license, etc.) unless they are too young for that (~4-6 year olds or younger).

How many locations/days would this take? Will they only be in major cities or come to more remote areas? How much space/personnel/time will it take to do this for major cities (ATL, DFW)? How much will it cost to cover more remote areas?

Is there a way to get an ID card if you start mid-season. Is the cost of getting it, travel included, reasonable?

If there are only a few locations we are asking a lot of families to travel to get IDs. This also means we will need larger venues and more staff and equipment to process everyone. If there are a lot of locations we need to hire and train the processing staff in many locations or have the same people travel around the country/world. Both of these options seem expensive.

Is it good for the future growth of the industry to add these costs to the mix before someone can compete at their first competition? Will the cost scare people away from giving All Stars a chance?

With USA hockey I go to their website once per year and register my son online. It takes 5 minutes. My thought was that you send in a picture and a birth certificate to a follow up address, and in 6 weeks you would get your card in the mail with your pic on it. Or, each gym would do an ID day at their own gym where they could take pictures if the gyms wanted to send them all in at once, but I still feel this is not necessary.

If you join mid year you would register online like everyone else and pay right away. Send in pic and in the meantime carry a temporary card printed out from the website showing your name and number, and carry birth certificate for that child until the permanent card arrives in the mail.

I don't think the cost would scare anyone off from all stars, because it is my understanding that everyone is eventually going to have to become a member of the USASF anyway in the future so it will already cost you that $25 anyway.

 

[cheerlifetake2]

I do realize I am way behind here but I just have to say that Bluecats insight was worth reading every bit of 11 pages.

 

[KB_Legend]

if the ID card information is mailed in then what's the point in having a third party?? you could, theoretically, send in any combination of picture and birth certificate and give it to any kid.... Cheaters will continue to cheat and people following the rules will continue to follow the rules... sounds like a lateral move to me...

 

[King]

Get rid of the card and go with RFID shoe tags. I think I placed a good argument in the other thread.