All-Star Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

[magical mom]

No, no, no!! Why create more confusion. I am so against this. Pretty soon it will be off population of the city your gym is held in and not large or small.


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[CheerKatie08]

This setup works wonders for high school nationals. Would love to see it in All-Star

 

[AndyT_T]

How does this affect Gym chains? For example, the Ice gym thats not in Illinois would probably be considered "small" but, since it is associated with ICE, probably has more of the benefits of being a "big" gym.

Do all Ice or Cali gyms fall into the "big" gym category, or just those with the population?

 

[AndyT_T]

No, no, no!! Why create more confusion. I am so against this. Pretty soon it will be off population of the city your gym is held in and not large or small.


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Not to be rude, but I dont understand at all how you came to that conclusion. Can you elaborate?

 

[Just-a-Mom]

I have read every post and while I can agree with a lot of the shared opinions I don't understand the ones that are opposed to it. My CP's high school won the Texas State 4A Division 1 football championship with approximately 2100 students. Another high school in Texas won the 5a Division 1 championship with approximately 6000 students. Did the fact that we were not in the largest division take away from our winning the state championship? Heck no! Could we realistically compete with a school that has 3x the amount of students? Heck no! And by the way, our girls soccer team took home a state championship as well, in the same division. And frankly, I have no idea who won it for the 5A division because I couldn't care less. We won state in our respective division - that's all that matters!

But high schools are not a fair comparison to this. Your cp's high school size is not determined by their ability to run a business well. Small gyms become large gyms by running their business well and consistently growing each year. So making a more level playing field amongst schools makes sense because size is a factor that actually cannot be controlled by the school itself.

When I first started reading this thread I thought this sounded like a decent idea. The more I think about it the less I like it. My cp's cheered at a small gym and loved it so I have nothing against small gyms - really I don't. They had a senior 5 team that had no business being at worlds - so much so that they couldn't even get one of the 3467432688422 AL bids. Did they think this was unfair, and that if there was a Division II offering it'd be more fair because their gym didn't have enough athletes to choose from to make a better team? No. They leveled down to senior 4 where they could compete. I'm sorry that mega gyms are hurting small gyms' business but that's how the world works.

So there already is a more appropriate level-playing-field division for these teams. It's called Senior 4. I can't deal with all this leveling of playing fields. In all aspects of life. This is like the No Child Left Behind act of cheerleading. I'm more of a sink or swim kind of person - I'm not a fan of coddling and hand holding and making things "fair." Gym owners: This may not be a popular opinion but just because you love cheer does not qualify you to run a business. Not everyone that opens a gym can be successful and I don't know why we are so obsessed with making sure every gym stays open. It's not the USASF's job to make sure your business stays in business - that's your job.

As for how I would split the divisions if it had to be done? Not by size. I'd make it that Division I is something you earn by placing well in Division II. (obviously in the beginning it would have to be based off previous Worlds placings) Would this make winning Division II less "meaningful"? Probably. Guess I'm just not sure why it matters. Why is everyone now entitled to the same feeling??? It's bad enough we're trying to make everyone a winner - now we have to make everyone feel the same about it?



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[cupieqt]

Do those that oppose this idea think some terrible, brand X gym with one full is going to win a Worlds title just because they're in D2? I think the winners of those divisions will be amazing teams that everyone will say "wow! They are awesome--who knew?"

Is it because, perhaps, small gyms are always ranked in the bottom of the regular division? Has anyone ever seen an amazing brand X small gym at Worlds that you felt were really very good but you knew they had no shot at being in the top because they didn't have a reputation preceding them?

These are serious questions. I do know there are some teams competing at Worlds that probably shouldn't be there. I also know there are some teams there that no one ever talks about but are really quite phenomenal, but are there enough of them to warrant this D1/D2 split?


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[BlueCat]

It is hard to come up with a solution for where to split the gyms, so why stop at 2 "small senior" divisions? Why not simply have D1 be gyms with 1000+, D2 = 900-999, D3 = 800-899, . . . D11 = 50-99, D12 = 10-49. Why stop at only 2 divisions by size? If the logic that more divisions helps more gyms grow, then 12 teams walking away as Small Senior World Champions would just mean 12 times as many happy kids.

My belief is that like most small businesses, many small gyms struggle to stay open more because of lack of knowledge / resources for how to run their business than because they aren't winning Worlds or don't know how to spot a full. I know that it isn't as fun to talk about, but I wish we could spend this much debate time coming up with ways to help small gym owners manage their money, increase their revenue streams, and stay in business.

Having more Worlds banners hanging in more gyms around the country may or may not help overall enrollment in all star (I happen to think it wouldn't - but we evil mega-gym owners aren't allowed to have an opinion), but that effect would be minor compared to USASF offering comprehensive business and customer service knowledge to all gyms. I get that tweaking tumbling rules, age brackets, divisions, and the length of uniform tops is something they are more comfortable focusing on, but if their goal REALLY was to help the small business owners and grow the sport, there are much more efficient and effective uses of their time and resources.

 

[The Sixth]

So again what is the issue of creating D2 and making their Worlds event Summit? Instead of numbers owners choose where they want to be by September? Then after a year look at the actual numbers and make a decision on numbers based on the actual attendance.

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I just think it's an answer to a problem that is very low on the priority chain, if it exists at all. Plus, it's only our speculation that says it would be their Summit as opposed to Diet Worlds.

 

[cupieqt]

@bluecat I don't view you as evil.


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[The Sixth]

Not to be rude, but I dont understand at all how you came to that conclusion. Can you elaborate?

There are plenty of examples in the thread. You even listed one yourself. The sheer logistics of even deciding how to categorize gyms will be a mess. How will gyms deal with fluctuating numbers during the season? Do they say no to business because it would put them over the threshold? Do gyms now declare they are a lower division because a group left? What about towards the end of the season after they've accepted a bid? How will the bids be distributed? Etc...etc...etc.....

 

[gymcatmomx2]

It appears that everyone's opinion is that all small gyms want to be mega-gyms but they just don't have the business acumen to make it happen. That is simply not true. There are some small gym owners that really have no desire to build/buy a larger facility, hire more coaches, spend more time at the gym. But then again, there are small gyms that still want to produce a worlds caliber team. In our area, the all-star cheer business is saturated! I can name at least 10 athletes over the last 7 seasons that have left our small gym and went to CA and SOT and now have a worlds ring....and they left with all of their level 5 skills that were acquired at our small gym! To be honest, if/when my 2 CPs obtain their level 5 skills and our gym can't field a truly competitive team, you can bet your bottom dollar I will be taking them to one of the mega-gym's tryouts. While I would hate to do that to our small gym owner, that 's the current environment that this sport is in. I personally hope something changes before it becomes a sport of the haves and the have-nots.

 

[Mamarazzi]

My apologies for not reading all 15 pages, and this may have been addressed already, but is D1/D2 based on GYM numbers or PROGRAM numbers?
I can see this really getting sticky for our program, CEA, ACE, etc., and ultimately affecting the way gyms geographically stack teams. CEA Kville is not the same as CEA Richmond, nor is FAME NY the same as FAME Midlo. So, the smaller gyms, being a member gym of a larger program, still end up like SVU victims? How does that help the smaller gym?

 

[mylifesaboutcheer]

It is hard to come up with a solution for where to split the gyms, so why stop at 2 "small senior" divisions? Why not simply have D1 be gyms with 1000+, D2 = 900-999, D3 = 800-899, . . . D11 = 50-99, D12 = 10-49. Why stop at only 2 divisions by size? If the logic that more divisions helps more gyms grow, then 12 teams walking away as Small Senior World Champions would just mean 12 times as many happy kids.

My belief is that like most small businesses, many small gyms struggle to stay open more because of lack of knowledge / resources for how to run their business than because they aren't winning Worlds or don't know how to spot a full. I know that it isn't as fun to talk about, but I wish we could spend this much debate time coming up with ways to help small gym owners manage their money, increase their revenue streams, and stay in business.

Having more Worlds banners hanging in more gyms around the country may or may not help overall enrollment in all star (I happen to think it wouldn't - but we evil mega-gym owners aren't allowed to have an opinion), but that effect would be minor compared to USASF offering comprehensive business and customer service knowledge to all gyms. I get that tweaking tumbling rules, age brackets, divisions, and the length of uniform tops is something they are more comfortable focusing on, but if their goal REALLY was to help the small business owners and grow the sport, there are much more efficient and effective uses of their time and resources.

Blue Cat you are so right! In my opinion the evil mega gyms are obviously doing something right! We have gotten to the point in all star where because there are so many National Champion titles that they just don't have the same meaning. How can people compare Worlds to the Olympics it is not even in the same league as the Olympics and never will be! How can you call something prestigious where teams make finals scoring over 100 points less than teams that did not make finals? Anybody can get a paid bid you time it right and you can walk into a paid bid just by being one of the few teams to show up. That does not make you better, or more deserving to be at worlds. IMO NCA Nationals is the Super Bowl of cheer comps and to me that jacket and winning it is far more prestigious than worlds. I would be fine if they just did away with it and put the money to better use.

Coach Troy you are absolutely right! The plan has already been laid out and we can have a 100 page thread on what we think but at the end of the day they are going to do what they wanna do period.


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[p.o.k.]

No matter how you cut it this will not help the smaller gyms. Look at this whole thread and how D2 is being written about. It is with the same contempt as the lowly at large bid winner who won their bid in April. Athletes will still leave to win the the "real" worlds title in D1.

If this destined then the split has to be based on something tangiable. This can't be certain people jacked up, non-subjective view of what gym is worthy. It has to be crystal clear and leave little room for gyms getting around the rules -especially multiple location gyms.

 

[gymcatmomx2]

But high schools are not a fair comparison to this. Your cp's high school size is not determined by their ability to run a business well. Small gyms become large gyms by running their business well and consistently growing each year. So making a more level playing field amongst schools makes sense because size is a factor that actually cannot be controlled by the school itself.

When I first started reading this thread I thought this sounded like a decent idea. The more I think about it the less I like it. My cp's cheered at a small gym and loved it so I have nothing against small gyms - really I don't. They had a senior 5 team that had no business being at worlds - so much so that they couldn't even get one of the 3467432688422 AL bids. Did they think this was unfair, and that if there was a Division II offering it'd be more fair because their gym didn't have enough athletes to choose from to make a better team? No. They leveled down to senior 4 where they could compete. I'm sorry that mega gyms are hurting small gyms' business but that's how the world works.

So there already is a more appropriate level-playing-field division for these teams. It's called Senior 4. I can't deal with all this leveling of playing fields. In all aspects of life. This is like the No Child Left Behind act of cheerleading. I'm more of a sink or swim kind of person - I'm not a fan of coddling and hand holding and making things "fair." Gym owners: This may not be a popular opinion but just because you love cheer does not qualify you to run a business. Not everyone that opens a gym can be successful and I don't know why we are so obsessed with making sure every gym stays open. It's not the USASF's job to make sure your business stays in business - that's your job.

As for how I would split the divisions if it had to be done? Not by size. I'd make it that Division I is something you earn by placing well in Division II. (obviously in the beginning it would have to be based off previous Worlds placings) Would this make winning Division II less "meaningful"? Probably. Guess I'm just not sure why it matters. Why is everyone now entitled to the same feeling??? It's bad enough we're trying to make everyone a winner - now we have to make everyone feel the same about it?



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Anyone who thinks high school football isn't a business doesn't know Texas high school football. It is HUGE! Schools in Texas spend a good portion of their budgets on the football programs because it is a money-making business. Every 2 years the UIL, which is the governing body for high school sports in Texas performs a realignment where they verify the student enrollment numbers for every high school in Texas. Our high school's goal was to drop down from 5A Division 2 to 4A Division 1. If a student did not reside in the school zone was transferred back to the school they were zoned to. Even if a student had an official transfer but had failing grades, tardiness, high absenteeism, they were also transferred out. This strategy paid off since we won the state championship in the smaller division. The larger high schools have been accused and found guilty of recruiting football players by offering parents jobs, free rent, etc. You won't convince a Texan that high school football isn't a business.