Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

Discussion in 'Allstar Cheerleading' started by King, Jun 30, 2013.

  1. just_kay_today

    just_kay_today Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    Certainly profit drives this decision, and as a corporation of one, whose most important product is about to graduate from this sport let me say this; I could give two flying figs about Worlds as a financial entity. Like a hydra, if its head gets lobbed off because of greed, so be it. Something else will take its place.
    My dollars will go to someone. I want to believe that folks will be smart enough to go with the Worlds type experience that gives them the best bang for their buck, and give their child a rewarding experience.

    In my other life, before I was a cheer mom, I worked for a large fortune 100 company in NY. They sent us to leadership school, and the lesson that resonated with me the most was the concept of never forgetting your end user. Never forget who your true customer is. Worlds? Are you listening?? Psst... Here's a clue: It's NOT the gym owner.
     
  2. Bailey

    Bailey I'm new. Don't Hurt Me

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    I totally agree! Theres been a lot of small gyms that were amazing but they cant compare to the big name gyms and thats not fair to them because they work super hard for something thats impossible for them to win. I also think that having a small gym district it will let more people find out about them and want to join their program which will make the cheer world grow
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  3. cupieqt

    cupieqt Person everyone wants to meet this season National Champion

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    Once again, @tumbleyoda is dead on the money correct.


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  4. CoachMandiCF

    CoachMandiCF I'm an announcer on CBS for Worlds (or should be)

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    I agree 100% on this point. We are a small gym (under 100 kids) and fielded 2 worlds hip hop teams in 2012. Placed last but it opened the kids eyes & made them hungry to work hard. Fast forward to 2013. They make finals and earn a top 10 ranking. It's the experience in this sense that pushes them.


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  5. Cheer_Explosion_Coach

    Cheer_Explosion_Coach Best Flyer.. on a parent team

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    I hear what you are saying, and I agree to an extent. However, there is something that gym owners cannot control, market size.

    Let's say my city has 230,000 people in it and yours has 1.2 M people in it.

    Of both of our populations, 1% had kids between 3-18, who were interested in All star cheerleading, and can afford it.

    My market = 2,300
    Your Market = 12,000

    Each of our businesses shared in 10% of our local market.

    My gym: 230 members
    Your gym: 1200 members

    Lets say for every 20 kids you coach, 1 kid becomes level 5 "worlds caliber" athlete. And since I'm so much more amazing (joking) every 10 kids I coach 1 becomes level 5 worlds caliber.

    My gym level 5 = 23 members
    You gym level 5 = 120 members.

    I have a small senior and you have just about team in every division and I'm a better coach or just have better athletes.

    Not to mention that hopefully, with 1200 members you can offer a few people full time employment to help you get more level 5 athletes.

    I like the idea of a D2 only because I think that there are some really good athletes on teams 11-25 at Worlds who "deserve" a little recognition for what they've accomplished. I dont want it to keep any level 5 athletes away from evil mega gyms. People are always looking for the BBD so athletes will always want to be on these famous teams at these famous gyms. Making a D2 won't change that.


    In my opinion, level 5 teams bring you recognition from outside the gym, but level 1 brings you $$$, respect, appreciation from inside the gym. I love our level 5 athletes bc they love the sport as much as I do, but I love my mini 1s just as much because their Front Rolls and goofy smiles give me LIFE!!!







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  6. CoachMandiCF

    CoachMandiCF I'm an announcer on CBS for Worlds (or should be)

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    Maybe it's my experience with all divisions of other sports, but I don't understand why a D2 win is looked down on. Do you think those D2 and D3 athletes who win their titles feel any less accomplished than a D1 athlete? No. I can equate for our sport to possibly US Finals maybe. Does a win in Small Gym division at US Finals make it any less meaningful because it was Small Gym? Ask those athletes...no. Maybe I'm rose colored, but as a small gym director, I don't see this as a negative. It gives my athletes an avenue to be successful when and if we field a Worlds cheer team.


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  7. katstat1

    katstat1 Best Flyer.. on a parent team

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    I think it would be a good idea to have a D2 division at Worlds. We are from a small gym (around 100 members). Placed top 10 2 years ago, this year 23rd. What bothered me the most about our placing this year was going back and realizing that for Small Coed whether you made top 10 very much depended on what ordered you competed. It was already pointed out that the later you competed the better chance you had to make top 10. All because of this "comparative scoring" that they use. So it was kind of a crap shoot as to how well you even had the potential to do. I think a part of that was because the judges knew "big name" gyms were coming so they held back on the scoring. So until they can get the scoring figured out to where it is even across the board, doesn't matter the name on your uniform or where you go in the order, I think having a second division for the smaller "unknown" gyms would be a good idea. I talked to a coach from a big name gym while at Worlds and he told me that if you don't have the big name you have to do "better" than them to even score the same.

    I also agree with @Cheer_Explosion_Coach that when you are from a smaller area you just don't have the numbers to pull from to get a ton of level 5 kids. And to get those kids year after year after year. We graduated a ton of kids last year so this year is going to be a building year. It isn't that we are losing kids to big name gyms as much as that we are a small gym and just don't always have a ton of level 5 kids to choose from.

    I'm super proud of cp and think she could totally make a team at a big name gym, but there is no way I am going to send her across the country just to be on one of those teams. We could drive 2.5 hours and be at a well known gym. I don't have the time or money to spend on that. So we will stay at our smaller hometown gym. She's been to Worlds once and would love to go again. Whether they split it into 2 divisions or not this year I hope our team can go because of all the new kids so like @Rudags said they can get that experience.
     
  8. CheerBank

    CheerBank Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    In all the discussion of D1 and D2 and what would be the reasonable split I completely forgot about the how the competition order helped determine score and how later teams did better in terms of advancing to the finals, especially in small coed. Thanks for bringing that back up again because that was a very real issue this past Worlds.
    I'm still not sure how I feel about the whole thing. I see the pros and cons of both sides. My cp is not on a level 5 team yet but hopefully someday soon, and our gym would definitely be in D2. I do not think, though, that having a split will deter athletes from leaving a D2 gym for a D1 in the long run. It's not just the chance to win at Worlds that brings them to leave, from what I have seen. They just want to be in a more competitive environment overall. And at least where we are, the smaller gyms cannot give them that environment that includes a team of full true level 5 skills.
     
  9. dawgshow

    dawgshow Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    No, I don't see how the industry will feel. I see how a handful, in the grand scope of all star, will feel. This is going to make quite a few people mad but there are MANY gyms that see Worlds as just another competition. A competition with amazing talent, but not THE prestigious end all competition. I'm sure none of these gyms would be considered worthy of some people's time and would be considered Craptastic AllStar gyms by some, but the perception is growing. Why? Because of how easy it is to get a bid. It's become a joke around here that if you wait long enough in the season and go to the right comps you can come in in the bottom half of your division and still get a bid.
    Worlds, in the eyes of many, has been watered down to just another great comp comparable to Cheersport, NCA, or Supernationals. Gyms are very proud to come in the top half of their division in those comps and wave those banners proudly.
    Now, do I agree with what Worlds has become? No. However, since I don't see the business model changing any time soon I see the break into Divisions as a natural progression and not a bad thing. Different for sure, but not bad. I realize that this isn't the popular opinion, but I would bet that if a true industry wide poll was taken (not just the relative few on the boards) it would show results similar to my opinion.
    I would like to see a "best of the best" competition return, like worlds used to be, but I don't think that we can turn back the clock on Worlds.


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  10. 12stepCheermom

    12stepCheermom Best Parent and Grammar Teacher '14

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    I never really thought of it from this perspective but its a good point. At my school maybe 1-2 kids will go D1 in football every year. They are the best of the best, like AJ. Blue from UNC (whom I still gripe at for not wearing state red!) but it's a very small minority and they're the best of the best.

    Thinking about it this way those are your lv5 kids. The football players not strong or skilled enough to hang in D1 go to D2 (where they can still be scholar shipped) or D3 where they're not (and in this case may represent that echelon of of teams that aren't competitive at worlds).

    Interesting viewpoint. I like it.


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  11. RockstarCheer

    RockstarCheer When all else fails.... I shimmy

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  12. Andre

    Andre Batman at Justice League

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    Gym owner choose where to open their gym and if as a gym owner I choose a small market I've stacked the deck against myself.
     
  13. BlueCat

    BlueCat Roses are red, cats are blue National Champion

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    What if that city with 1.2 million has 6 gyms in it? (or in our case, 30+?) Does the same logic apply? It may be a bigger market, but there still may be more gyms per capita than in a smaller city. Each gym's "share" in a big market may be much lower than that of a lone gym in a smaller market.
     
  14. gymcatmomx2

    gymcatmomx2 When all else fails.... I shimmy

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    Wow, I am a bit flabbergasted at this response. Small businesses are what thrives and grows our economy. If a small community doesn't have the basic services such as Mom & Pop IGA or Joe Schmoes Plumbing supply, those communities die and people would be forced to move to the mega-cities...which will happen in the all-star industry (mega-gyms) if things don't change.
     
  15. BlueCat

    BlueCat Roses are red, cats are blue National Champion

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    You could also stack the deck against yourself by opening in a large market saturated with gyms.