All-Star Does Going First In A Division Really Affect Scoring/placement?

[King]

Once again, nothing to do with order of performance. A good judge will make sure the team they think should have won, wins.


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Judges are human. It doesn't mean there arent good judges and they dont try hard, but they, like everyone, are susceptible to just general positional bias. The larger teh group above 10 the bigger the advantage of going later.

 

[cheer25mom]

Once again, nothing to do with order of performance. A good judge will make sure the team they think should have won, wins.


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How, when score sheets at some competitions go to coaches before a division is even finished competing? Or when a comp awards a level champ and teams in a level are spread over the entire day. Do you really remember the exact score you gave one of 20 teams in a level at 9 am when you are judging the same level at 6pm and the coaches already have the score sheet? Can you remember how all the details of their routine compare to the one in front of you after you have seen other teams all day? It just seems like an impossible task to me.

 

[emo_wifey]

This is not just a thing in cheer. In marching band in HS, the later you went, the better your chances. I wouldn't be surprised if other similar activities were the same.

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[Keep_Believing]

Is Summit comparative ?

 

[cherita.cheerology]

How, when score sheets at some competitions go to coaches before a division is even finished competing? Or when a comp awards a level champ and teams in a level are spread over the entire day. Do you really remember the exact score you gave one of 20 teams in a level at 9 am when you are judging the same level at 6pm and the coaches already have the score sheet? Can you remember how all the details of their routine compare to the one in front of you after you have seen other teams all day? It just seems like an impossible task to me.

With our judging system (for the company I've judged for), we have the ability to see what we scored each team in that division. While this may not be the case for every EP, it certainly is possible. A good judge takes notes and does remember what separates good from great. Now as far as grand champ and whatnot, that's completely different. But you're not judging the same division from 9am as you are at 6pm, so those scores don't need to be comparative to each other. Just the ones in the same division.


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[cheer25mom]

With our judging system (for the company I've judged for), we have the ability to see what we scored each team in that division. While this may not be the case for every EP, it certainly is possible. A good judge takes notes and does remember what separates good from great. Now as far as grand champ and whatnot, that's completely different. But you're not judging the same division from 9am as you are at 6pm, so those scores don't need to be comparative to each other. Just the ones in the same division.


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At most of the competitions we go to, the levels are spread over the whole day. We have been to comps where a division was spread over several hours. When bids are at stake, scores definitely need to be comparative across divisions.

 

[Cheer0825]

Honestly... how much does that matter?

I honestly saw the effects this weekend: the first day we went first did one of the best routines we ever done and got a 94, second day we went last and had few mistakes and got a 95. something.
So yeah it unfortunately has a pretty big effect imo

 

[Cheer0825]

Is Summit comparative ?

I think so that's why some people think wildcard team have an unfair advantage ( they skip semis and go last in finals)

 

[cherita.cheerology]

I think it affects overall scoring much more than placements, but it's not accurate to say it has absolutely no effect on placements.

This is has been discussed in a few places:

Competition Order Affecting Scores? | Fierce Board - The Voice Of Cheer
Let's Discuss Worlds Scoring | Page 15 | Fierce Board - The Voice Of Cheer
https://www.fierceboard.com/threads/my-issue-with-comparative-scoring.36859/


I know someone used real scores to show that teams that go later tend to place higher. I just can't find it.

It definitely has an affect on overall scoring. You're right, I shouldn't have used a blanket statement in saying it has no effect on placements.


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[Official OWECheer]

It doesn't matter at all.


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As a judge, have you ever noticed scoring rigor change as you get further into a division lineup (for a large division, as in 10-15+ teams) Like, do judges get more generous the later a team goes?

If yo have more than 10 teams in a division then the later you go the higher your score. I mapped it out for worlds using linear regression a couple years ago. Each subsequent team had a higher percentage chance of getting one point higher each later place they went. Ill find the thread.

I love when math applies to cheer. Which is often.

 

[cherita.cheerology]

At most of the competitions we go to, the levels are spread over the whole day. We have been to comps where a division was spread over several hours. When bids are at stake, scores definitely need to be comparative across divisions.

REALLY??!!!?!? Hmm...that doesn't seem right as far as divisions being spread out like that. I can definitely see your thinking then. There needs to be a better way to determine bids...you're right. Hmm...this is giving me tons of ideas. I might do a video about this. Thanks for your insight!


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[cherita.cheerology]

As a judge, have you ever noticed scoring rigor change as you get further into a division lineup (for a large division, as in 10-15+ teams) Like, do judges get more generous the later a team goes?


I love when math applies to cheer. Which is often.

Not really, if there is a difference, it won't be a huge one.


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[Official OWECheer]

Not really, if there is a difference, it won't be a huge one.


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Huge as in cheer huge (fraction of a point)?

 

[cherita.cheerology]

If yo have more than 10 teams in a division then the later you go the higher your score. I mapped it out for worlds using linear regression a couple years ago. Each subsequent team had a higher percentage chance of getting one point higher each later place they went. Ill find the thread.

I have a problem with worlds scoring, but that's a whole different topic.


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[tojofasho]

Not really, if there is a difference, it won't be a huge one.


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In divisions where three teams are within a point of each other, it doesn't need to be a "huge difference".