How Low Can You Go To Win Gold At Worlds ?

Discussion in 'Allstar Cheerleading' started by MrBob, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. MrBob

    MrBob I'm new. Don't Hurt Me

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    Yes I know, my title seems a bit arrogant but in the end, it is a real question, let me explain ;)

    Here's why : A team from Norway called Viqueens Spirit who placed 2nd at Worlds 2018 in level 6 (and also have a history of doing pretty well year after year) have decided this year that their best chance to win gold is to go down to All-Girl 5 NT level.

    If they'd competed in the category all year, I would be fine with it, but that's not the case. Up to last week (As you'll see further down the thread) they were still competing (And doing well) in Level 6, so my guess is that they got their bids in 5NT in one competition and then got back to usual level 6 schtick.

    Now I've been following the 5 NT division closely all year and I think it's a shame that teams like Cheer Extreme Lady Lux who dominated in the US, ACE Vicious, Flyers All Starz Fearless, Copper and Silky Sharks in Canada will very likely place 2nd, 3rd or 4th at best because Viqueens Spirit (And they're not shy about it on social media) will just blow up everybody in the division.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want the Norwegian team to be disqualified, they are a very, very good team and I do want to see them at Worlds, they deserve to be there, but, in a category more suited for them.

    I get it that a team can change division or category during a year because of injuries and everything, but going from one of the biggest division/category that is IO-AG-L6 to the newest and most probably the weakest for this year in IO-AG-5-NT, all that in a week span ? I mean come on...would you see that in any other sport ?

    There is the possibility they had a whole bunch of girls leave the team for a number of reasons but it sure didn't seem like it in this clip form a competition held last week :
    .

    I know they wont be able to do the tumbling part and that most of their stunts are level 6 but their skill level is so high that I can't imagine them messing a more simpler level 5 move...

    So, is there a rule at USASF or IASF for which category a team should compete at Worlds ?

     
  2. Lisa Seye

    Lisa Seye I'm an announcer on CBS for Worlds (or should be)

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    They aren't the only team to switch divisons this year, even after winning a bid in their first division. There are at least 3 teams who won a bid in a worlds divison and switched to another and won a bid in that division too. Rules allow it. They cant compete both divisons at worlds tho.

    Some teams win a bid and end up with roster changes and have to re-win another bid. At least one team had to do that this season.

    Summit is no different, I have seen teams win a bid to worlds, then go back and get a summit bid. Of course they have to choose one tho. I have seen summit teams win an international bid then try to compete for a non international bid to summit.

    Also this season a team couldn't win a 4.2 bid to summit, switched UP to all girl nt and won a bid to worlds.

    All within the rules. I dont know how people feel about the rules, whether they agree or not. There will always be loopholes in the rules.
     
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  3. Lisa Seye

    Lisa Seye I'm an announcer on CBS for Worlds (or should be)

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    Additionally, in that video, the level 5 building skills weren't that solid. The level 6 stuff with lots of bracers will be completely different than level 5 stuff. I truly dont think it is a case where they will dominate and blow everyone else out of contention. I would be curious to see a video of their level 5 routine.
     
  4. MrBob

    MrBob I'm new. Don't Hurt Me

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    You're right, if there's a loophole to be found, someone will most likely always find it.

    But isn't there a limit ? I mean switching UP, or going from co-ed to all girl or large to small or something else that's a small step is one thing, but going from the top to the bottom seems a bit of a stretch to me and there as to be some rules to regulate these things.

    Anywhow, there's an old saying that goes : To conquer without danger you triumph without glory...
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  5. quitthedrama

    quitthedrama I buy my Insta followers

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    When USASF/IASF creates a division that allows teams that would never be competitive at worlds to now be competitive, gyms will come.
     
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  6. Eyes On The Prize

    Eyes On The Prize Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    What? :confused:

    I don't understand why they "should" be in a different division just because they competed L6 in the past. They don't have full team L5 tumbling, just like every other L5 NT team that will be at worlds. They didn't hit any of their L6 stunt sequences solidly in the video you posted (from a week ago). There's another video from December where they still weren't hitting their L6 stunts. So it seems they struggled with L6 stunts all season. If this were a L5 team competing for a bid where they didn't have level appropriate tumbling and their stunts fell that many times, you'd no doubt hear people saying they should've dropped down to an appropriate level. So when a team does actually drop to an appropriate level, they're "going low to get a gold"?

    It's not really fair to say that because they competed X division in past years, and placed at worlds, they should stay in that division. Different year, different team. Last years team was really talented. Compare their worlds video last year to the one you posted and it doesn't even look like the same group of athletes. GBE did the same thing with their senior Lime team this year. They placed 2nd at Worlds last year; this year they don't exist because the gym couldn't field a competitive team.

    Tbh, this Viqueens team seems like a great fit for the L5 NT division and I'd actually love to see how they'd adapt to it. Most of the NT teams have been disappointing to me and I'm blasé towards the entire division because of the lack of talent. None of the teams are what I envisioned this division looking like. I welcome a team who will force the other NT teams to up their game and do harder skills - it is Worlds after all.
     
  7. cheermomforever

    cheermomforever Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    There was a team in IOC5 that had a bid then decided 2 weeks ago, days before competition, to go Sr open 5 instead, and got a bid, probably due to the fact top 10 move on not top 3 per country.
     
  8. crazzyeyesassypants

    crazzyeyesassypants Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    I actually think NT should be level 6 only so Viqueens are in the perfect division in opinion. Also OP stated that IAG6 is one of the biggest divisions not sure what country he/she is referring to being the biggest division but definitely not in the USA, I think last year there was only 4 USA teams in that division maybe even less. It sounds to me like someone is salty that Viqueens is coming their way.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. tuckxandxtwist

    tuckxandxtwist Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    don't international teams technically get their bids on a different schedule too?
     
  10. WinstonsGirl

    WinstonsGirl I'm an announcer on CBS for Worlds (or should be)

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    Having competed both level 5 and 6, I'd just like to point out that while level 6 is a higher number, it doesn't make moving to level 5 a step down. They're pretty different in terms of what is required, and I know a lot of great level 5 athletes who would be terrible at level 6 and vice versa. Level 5 is so much more of a technical stunt level, in my opinion.

    Anyway, who knows what is happening in Norway this season? Perhaps there are no other teams in NT 5 and they want competition to push them to get better. Perhaps competitions aren't being offered in their area with that division. Maybe they had roster changes, or some athletes couldn't afford worlds but still wanted to compete locally. Even if they did do it for a globe, they still need to hit and there is no guarantee they will, or that the judges will like what they do. I love me some Viqueens, but historically, they have a pattern of crushing semi's and not hitting well in finals.
     
  11. Sterling von Shimmer

    Sterling von Shimmer I make my own voiceovers

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    I’m not sure that this is happening in this example, but it does happen. And it’s a tacky way to win.

    We used to see it more in the HS division. Varsity teams would enter Nationals as “JV” because they knew they couldn’t hack it at the actual varsity level, so they thought going down to JV would increase their chances of winning. You could tell this was happening when a school only entered a JV team, but no V team. Fortunately UCA made a rule against that recently.

    However, I’ll still see formerly top 3 teams completely vanish from their usual division only to show up in something like JV Game Day so they can get that white jacket. I mean, if you have to you have to, but I wouldn’t do it. I couldn’t tell my girls, “Whelp, you suck this year and I don’t have any faith in you, so I’m setting the bar extra low. Now go get that trophy that doesn’t mean anything!”
     
  12. caffeineandglitter

    caffeineandglitter I'm new. Don't Hurt Me

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    I happen to follow this team on Instagram--they posted on one of their stories that they had to drop down to Level 5 because two of their flyers are old enough for IASF Level 5, but not old enough for IASF 6.
     
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  13. XtremeWpg

    XtremeWpg I have my own cheer message board

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    The difference in skills from level 5 to level 6 is dramatic. To be honest, having done pyramids and stunts at both levels, level 6 is easier, not harder than level 5 to me.

    I don't consider it going lower by any means. Teams change divisions all the time for one reason or another. Teams compete in multiple divisions for one reason or another.

    I'm sort of tired (not directed at the OP specifically, but in general) of people saying that teams that change level or divisiom are doing something that is unethical or shady or whatever else you want to call it. If the rules allow for it, its none of those things. We dropped our senior 3 to a senior 2 part way through the year because in the end, it was a better fit for them to feel successful as a team. A bunch of those kids can tumble higher than level 3. A few crossover to an Open level 6 team. Because the rules allow for it, and it suits them athletically and allows them to feel success and improvement.

    We will never, ever know the full circumstances as to why one team or program does something. It's all speculation. But especially when it comes to teams from other countries, that use a different age grid or rule set, they may have to make changes or adaptations to a routine, division or level in order to come compete at worlds.
     
  14. Cheeranswers

    Cheeranswers Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    Super disappointed in the switch. I was so excited to see them compete rewind full ups. First al girl team to do so if I’m not mistaken!
     
  15. MrBob

    MrBob I'm new. Don't Hurt Me

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    Well, I guess I have some explaining to do!

    First off, I want to let you know that I am neither an athlete, nor an ex-cheerleader or a coach and not even close to being an expert, I am basically just a proud cheer dad that's been following this sport for the past 6 years, I've been to more or less 50 competitions, in the US and Canada, I've been through all the emotions, from coming close, to failing miserably, to winning it all, my daughter went through scolar to All Star teams, from level 2 to level 5 and even coached for a while...In all those years, I got to be a little better at judging from my seat or the fan zone at the events but aside from my predictions getting better and better with the times, I still am far far away from being an expert. So that's that for my cheer experience.

    Now I must say that being a bit older, my background is also way different than most of you here...My area of expertise, in my time, was baseball, hockey...and bowling!

    So my questioning of the rules comes directly from my own background. Never, in any way shape or form would you even think of changing divisions because of a poor start or even injuries, and certainly not to have a better chance at winning...You made your bed, you lied in it, you had a miserable season, learn from it and come back stronger the next year.

    I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from, same as I understand the cheer world is a whole other ball game…

    Another thing I want to make clear is that I don't mind teams changing levels or divisions yearly, In fact, not only do I don't care what level teams are from one year to another, I can't even remember what level they were when I get to see them! Too much categories for my little head if you ask me but that's a whole other question for a whole other time.

    Also, I know just enough to realize that level 6 and 5 are not that far away from each other and that often, level 5 is tougher and more competitive than 6.

    As for the Viqueens Spirit from Norway, forget about what they did last year or the year before...It bugged me that they spent the whole season up to last week at level 6, and even if the video I've posted maybe wasn't their best effort this year, we can see they have skills...If they can hit those moves, they should, in my mind, hit level 5 NT moves pretty easily, again, maybe I'm wrong but I think I saw enough Level 5NT competition this season to have at least a little knowledge to back me up ;)

    All in all, I still think it's sad that teams who've battled it out all year, compared themselves, tried to upgrade to level up and be competitive with each other, may not even get a chance to experience day 2 (There's also the INTL rules of 3 teams per country that's a problem here…) or a podium for a team that switched level in the last stretch, to be in the newest division, the one they have a better chance of dominating. That maybe does wonder for the siwtching down's team self esteem but what does it do for those who will get left out after giving it their all, all season long?

    In a sport based largely on sportmanship, one that's trying to gain momentum and credibility, I personally think it's not the way to go about it...

    So, now that we got that out of the way, let's go back to the subject at hand from another angle, I'll ask my question differently :

    How much of a gap is acceptable as it pertains to levels/categories and a time frame for a team to switch ? After one month, 1 competition? 2? How close is too close to Worlds to switch? Should there be a limit or not?

    Same with levels, you compete all year at IOAG6 or co-ed or Senior or whatever, what would be an acceptable « downgrade » DURING a season? Should there be rules to regulate this and prevent teams switching just to have a better shot at gold?

    Maybe all is fine the way it is too, like I said earlier, it doesn't really matter to me beacause I don't hit the mat! My girl does and she and her team, this year or any other year or team before have always performed well under any circumstances so I don't fear any team coming her way...Be it a US, Canadian or any other country's team ;)

    By the way, she doesn't know I'm over here talking cheer...My bet is she wouldn't like it so much, further more on this subject as she basically has the same opinion as you on the matter, after all, it's her sport and she knows the rules that apply, I am the one who's questioning the rules, and no, I don't do it in front of her, I just ask questions, she answers, I oblige and move on.

    Hey, I think I answered most of the questions and then some didn't I ? So I'll leave it at that!

    Again, thanks for your time and your informative answers, much appreciated :)