High School Hs Higher Stunting Difficulty

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I've always thrown a full up prep, half up extention, straight ride and non-kicking baskets by the ankles. It's alot easier to throw and more comfortable. This season is my first time ever throwing a 1 1/2 up prep from the flyers butt. I can see a probably holding the ankles if your doing a kicking basket because the flyer probably wouldn't know when exactly to kick.

I was referring to tosses only. Although I will be consistent in my statements that any flyer technique flaws should be corrected instead of having the back "band-aid" them by preventing them from occurring.

With that said: unless you are 12 1/2 feet tall, or have arms that drag behind you like the train on a wedding dress, there's no way possible that you should be able to do ANYTHING with a flyer's ankles to help her know when to kick in a toss.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I don't believe they are some scary dangerous skill. I do believe that to be performed well, they require drills, practice time and proper instruction. For my team, the reward is not worth that required time because 1)little to no reward at UCA competitions, and 2) it's useless to us for game day use. Even on our state scoresheet, there isn't a basket category.



You must live in a cheer bubble. We are in the midst of the NorthBeast, and the high school that I took over 2 years ago couldn't even handle extension cradles. There are lots of talented schools around, and just as many that I see at football games that scare me and make me want to go tell their AD to ground bound them. As I'm sure you know, cheerleading requires proper coaching and instruction, and there are MANY schools that don't require cheer coaches to have any knowledge or certifications.

And for HS cheer, you have to remember that these rules also govern those non-competing schools. So, yeah, you can get rigorous with deductions and technique scoring, but that isn't a deterrent for a sideline-only school.



We all have to make the best decisions for our programs as a whole.

Exactly....

For the every one of the 650 teams that compete at nationals (some of which themselves are all but clueless), there are at least 5 more that never get near a real competition. Until those teams go viral for their stupidity, no one really knows all the dangerous situations those kids are put in by alleged "coaches."

 

[dat.jpp]

I was referring to tosses only. Although I will be consistent in my statements that any flyer technique flaws should be corrected instead of having the back "band-aid" them by preventing them from occurring.

With that said: unless you are 12 1/2 feet tall, or have arms that drag behind you like the train on a wedding dress, there's no way possible that you should be able to do ANYTHING with a flyer's ankles to help her know when to kick in a toss.

Mhm, I have a fear of holding the ankles for a kicking basket.

 

[AndyT_T]

It's not smart cheerleading just because a lot of gyms do it. It's not ok for a back to throw under a butt or from the ankles. The back belongs under the toss. That is the only location for the back's hands that allows them to mechanically increase height on the toss.

If you have a flyer who is having trouble standing up aggressively, teach them to stand up quickly. Don't use the back as a means to Band-Aid the flyer's poor technique.

If you have a flyer who is having trouble keeping her feet together, rolling off the bases hands (whatever that means), or twisting, teach the flyer to do those things correctly. Don't use the back as a means to Band-Aid the flyer's poor technique.

If the bases are breaking too low, or are too slow off the bottom, they need to learn to throw correctly before you add the tossing assistance from the back or a front. Don't use the back as a means to Band-Aid their poor technique.

Ask a flyer doing double baskets if she wants anyone doing anything with her toes. If she doesn't slap the taste out of your mouth and tell you all she needs is the added height from those people throwing straight up the way they are supposed to throw, then she SUCKS at double baskets. She has no business doing them.

All of the things you just described are a means of cheating stunts to make up for poorly taught skills and poor technique.

edited to fix a typo

Who says the back belongs where? Technique, as it is currently defined by the governing bodies of cheer, allows the back to throw from either location. Aiding the flyer in maintaining a more successful body position isn't a band-aid, its smart coaching. Whatever makes the team more successful and safer isn't a band-aid, it's coaching in a way that ensures the safety and strength of your team as a whole.
I never said I don't work with my bases and flyers on their technique, I just said I use the backspot to assist the bases/flyer with the parts of their basket that may not be technically perfect in order to ensure that the basket they throw is as powerful and safe as possible.
Technique, in any sport, is decided by the governing bodies based on the needs of the sport (thing cheer tuck technique wrapping behind knees and gymnastics technique wrapping over). Until USASF/Varsity say that it is bad technique to throw from butt, than it is not bad technique to throw from butt. I have been to NCA and UCA camps where the instructors allow the back to throw from wherever they want because the technique score comes, not from where the backspot throws from, but from the height of the basket, the speed of the bases and when they break, and the body position and shape of the flyer.

As to the note about the flyer having her toes thrown, you're just wrong. Many of the best teams in the entire world throw from the front to speed up flyers toes to get them through to the cradle, not because it's bad technique but because it's more efficient.
I have thrown double baskets, pike open doubles, x fulls, front doubles, arabian fulls, arabian one and a halfs, and kick forward fulls. None of the flyers slapped me and told me the front spot was useless, because it is a common accepted practice in the sport and makes their baskets more successful.
The two NCA national championships my school took home weren't hindered by the front spots either.

Heres team USA having the front spots throw toes to get the flyer through to a cradle:


In acro gymnastics and circus acrobatics (which I have also coached), who created the technique for basket tosses in the first place, when you have three throwers they actually put the third in front, not in back. They believe it is bad technique for the flyer to require someone behind her to catch her, that she should be able to do that on her own. For those sports it is more important to have someone pushing the toes to ensure that the flyer gets through to the cradle. So even historically it is technically correct.

Heres the Combined routine in mens 4 four Belgium as an example:


So is having a backspot on baskets at all bad technique? Acro gymnasts would say yes, but the reality is technique for the same skill can be different between different sports, and that it is up to the governing bodies and judges to define what good technique even is. A good example of that is the ideal head position for tumbling. In TNT they want the head out in whips and they teach their tumblers not to press their arms. In artistic, they teach a neutral head position and encourage their tumblers to press their arms. In acro, they want layouts to have open shoulders to get a more "artsy" floaty dance shape. I cheer, we encourage tumblers to have their layouts be slightly more hollow than in gymnastics with a more open set.

Technique can be different between sports and teams for the same skill, while still being technically correct.
Until a judge drops my basket score because my backs are at ankles or butt, I will leave them there. For now at least, moving my back spots to those positions raised my basket score because it enabled the flyer/bases to do their job, which is actually being judged, better than it was being done before before.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Who says the back belongs where? Technique, as it is currently defined by the governing bodies of cheer, allows the back to throw from either location. Aiding the flyer in maintaining a more successful body position isn't a band-aid, its smart coaching. Whatever makes the team more successful and safer isn't a band-aid, it's coaching in a way that ensures the safety and strength of your team as a whole.
I never said I don't work with my bases and flyers on their technique, I just said I use the backspot to assist the bases/flyer with the parts of their basket that may not be technically perfect in order to ensure that the basket they throw is as powerful and safe as possible.
Technique, in any sport, is decided by the governing bodies based on the needs of the sport (thing cheer tuck technique wrapping behind knees and gymnastics technique wrapping over). Until USASF/Varsity say that it is bad technique to throw from butt, than it is not bad technique to throw from butt. I have been to NCA and UCA camps where the instructors allow the back to throw from wherever they want because the technique score comes, not from where the backspot throws from, but from the height of the basket, the speed of the bases and when they break, and the body position and shape of the flyer.

As to the note about the flyer having her toes thrown, you're just wrong. Many of the best teams in the entire world throw from the front to speed up flyers toes to get them through to the cradle, not because it's bad technique but because it's successful.
I have thrown double baskets, pike open doubles, x fulls, front doubles, arabian fulls, and kick forward fulls. None of the flyers slapped me and told me the front spot was useless, because it is a common accepted practice in the sport. And the two NCA national championships my school took home weren't hindered by the front spots either.

Heres team USA having the front spots throw toes to get the flyer through to a cradle:


In acro gymnastics and circus acrobatics, who created the technique for basket tosses in the first place, when you have three throwers they actually put the third in front, not in back. They believe it is bad technique for the flyer to require someone behind her to catch her, that she should be able to do that on her own. For those sports it is more important to have someone pushing the toes to ensure that the flyer gets through to the cradle. So even historically it is technically correct.

Let's establish two things here:

First, there's about a 90% chance that I've been doing and teaching this stuff non-stop since before you were conceived. I've lived more cheerleading/acro/gymnastics history than you could possibly think you know.

Second, just because a concept is legal does not make it correct. Nor does it make it "good technique as defined by the governing bodies of cheer." Just because a kid can legally do a backhandspring with her ankles 4 1/2 feet apart, that doesn't mean she should. I've never seen a law that says I can't drive my truck with my feet if I want to, that doesn't make it a good idea.

I did not say that baskets should not have front tossers. I said those tossers should throw straight up. The job of the front in a basket is NOT to do anything with the flyer's toes. If you think it is, then you're the worst kind of dangerous coach. You watch those tosses in the video you posted to prove your point closely. Those flyers leave the tossers' hands and are completely disconnected from them before they ever do ANYTHING to initiate their flip. If the fronts in those tosses did anything to initiate the flyers' flip, the BEST case scenario is that they would take height off the toss. After the BEST case scenario it gets really dangerous from them causing the top to land head-heavy all the through to they would shoot the top backwards off the toss. That's not a video of team usa using the fronts to do anything with the flyers toes. That's a video of Team USA using fronts to increase height on their tosses like any good coach with people standing around otherwise doing nothing would do.

What you are arguing for are all concepts I see in the all star cheerleading world. Concepts that are used to push skills through as quickly as possible in order to "hit the grid" with a technique be damned approach.

Who said that having the back spot band aid a flyer's technique in the ways you describe is bad technique? Any coach who's come behind you, and the other coaches who think the way you do, and tried to teach these untrained flyers to do tosses correctly after they've learned for years to rely on their backs.

You're a dangerous individual.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

[AndyT_T]

Let's establish two things here:

First, there's about a 90% chance that I've been doing and teaching this stuff non-stop since before you were conceived. I've lived more cheerleading/acro/gymnastics history than you could possibly think you know.

Second, just because a concept is legal does not make it correct. Nor does it make it "good technique as defined by the governing bodies of cheer." Just because a kid can legally do a backhandspring with her ankles 4 1/2 feet apart, that doesn't mean she should. I've never seen a law that says I can't drive my truck with my feet if I want to, that doesn't make it a good idea.

I did not say that baskets should not have front tossers. I said those tossers should throw straight up. The job of the front in a basket is NOT to do anything with the flyer's toes. If you think it is, then you're the worst kind of dangerous coach. You watch those tosses in the video you posted to prove your point closely. Those flyers leave the tossers' hands and are completely disconnected from them before they ever do ANYTHING to initiate their flip. If the fronts in those tosses did anything to initiate the flyers' flip, the BEST case scenario is that they would take height off the toss. After the BEST case scenario it gets really dangerous from them causing the top to land head-heavy all the through to they would shoot the top backwards off the toss. That's not a video of team usa using the fronts to do anything with the flyers toes. That's a video of Team USA using fronts to increase height on their tosses like any good coach with people standing around otherwise doing nothing would do.

What you are arguing for are all concepts I see in the all star cheerleading world. Concepts that are used to push skills through as quickly as possible in order to "hit the grid" with a technique be damned approach.

Who said that having the back spot band aid a flyer's technique in the ways you describe is bad technique? Any coach who's come behind you, and the other coaches who think the way you do, and tried to teach these untrained flyers to do tosses correctly after they've learned for years to rely on their backs.

You're a dangerous individual.

Age doesn't make you correct. For example, you may have been coaching cheer/gymnastics/acro (which was called Sports acrobatics before I was born by the way and wasn't a FIG sport), but you didn't at all talk about the difference techniques between the sports.
But go ahead and insult me instead of addressing my points, thats fine and not petty. Oh at all. If you're going to come for me come correct, I know my history. Im USAG and USASF certified, I've read the books, I've been trained by the best of the best (I got trained on spotting by Kevin Scott who actually wrote the book on TNT spotting), and I've been coaching for a long time too, across multiple disciplines.
You may have been doing it longer, but that doesn't mean you've been doing it right or better. Technique and directions change, thats just how it goes. Every year I learn new coaching methods and drills/skills that enable me to do my job better and safer. Refusing to change when you're presented with new evidence and techniques doesn't make you superior. Good coaching requires you to constantly learn and grow, and for your techniques to learn and grow as well.
I had a coach in high school that told me not to drink water, but to take a small sip and wet my mouth. He said thats what he was taught and so that's what he teaches. Sports and coaching techniques change, ignoring those changes lead you to make dangerous decisions like telling kids not to properly hydrate because thats how you were taught or thats how you did it, even though the industry has changed their mind or invented new methods. THAT is dangerous coaching.
In the 80's they were doing tension rolls and using spring boards to get to the top of a pyramid, so don't try to use cheer history to tell me your technique is correct. Those techniques have changed, as has the sport.

I didn't say they grabbed her toes lol, you throw from underneath but as it begins to break you throw like you're throwing over your head. Which, I might add, is an accepted practice taught by coaches in the biggest schools, at NCA speed camps, and all over the industry to get the flyer through to a cradle in the safest most efficient way possible. If it makes her come through head heavy than you are doing it wrong.

If a person did a back handspring with their feet 4 1/2 feet apart their technique score would go down because it is improper technique. But what I and other coaches are doing actually raises the technique score. You're comparing apples to oranges. And following it up with a straw man argument btw.

I think it's hilarious that you're bashing all star technique when, at least when I watch HS nationals and College nationals, outside of the top 10 teams technique is atrocious. The technique standard on the whole is definitely higher in all star across the board, especially in recent seasons. Even you said technique in HS at Nationals is scary:

Exactly....

For the every one of the 650 teams that compete at nationals (some of which themselves are all but clueless), there are at least 5 more that never get near a real competition. Until those teams go viral for their stupidity, no one really knows all the dangerous situations those kids are put in by alleged "coaches."

I never said the flyer should rely on their backs, I said backs should be placed in locations where they can make the biggest difference in a group. No group will ever have 100% perfect everything, I choose to use my backs to get them closer to perfect everything. And thats reflected in my technique scores ironically.

Insulting me for no other reason than to be combative is childish. For an old school cheer coach you really do have a lot of growing up to do.

 

[AndyT_T]

edit

 

[dat.jpp]

Well, that escalated quickly.

shhh its ok, enjoy it while it lasts LOL

 

[AScheer]

Bringing this thread back because I have question lol

What about double twist baskets?
Kick fulls and other two skill baskets are legal in high school cheer. If we're trying to create a skill progression from middle school through to high school and then college I think that there is room in a high school cheer curriculum for a double twist somewhere. It seems reasonable to me to have a double basket and pyramid flips being a training ground preparing girls for collegiate baskets and dismounts without being unrealistic or dangerous.
Teaching girls to control and time a twist is an important skill in our sport and currently I think it's lacking in high school.

Thoughts?

We personally don't do baskets. UCA school, they aren't on our score sheet, so we spend our time elsewhere. Years ago, when they took tosses out of middle school and off the score sheet, I was not happy. It took all of a month into a new season for me to embrace and enjoy no baskets!

I know not everyone is UCA though, and much of the country still does baskets. So as part of the discussion I'm not sure I would vote to allow double twist baskets, but I see your point. I think that doubles are easier to teach and execute than a kick single. I'm not necessarily on board with either being allowed in high school though. Realistically there's probably only 20% of school coaches that could properly teach the skill. Those 20% aren't the teams I'm worried about. It's all the other teams. The ones who coach themselves, while the sponsor sits watching them attempt what they saw on youtube on the concrete floor in the school hallway. I see SCARY single full baskets and nasty toetouch baskets on the regular from schools. I don't know that upping difficulty on baskets would be good as a whole.

ETA: I responded BEFORE reading the full thread... that sure did take a turn!