High School If You Could Magically Have Three Rule Changes...

[ScottyB]

I want there to not be differing rules. UCA's NHSCC is an official NFHS sanctioned national championship. How can they have rules overstepping each other like this?

Only thing I want is inversions to the top/extended. It's silly my kids have to catch a BHS-up, drop it low enough to count it as prep level then can extend.

 

[ScottyB]

While we are on the topic of rule changes, has anyone ever thought about the whole change process and what that entails? We act like they brought back High to High tics due to research, etc to prove that it is safe or should be allowed but like where would they be getting data on HS athletes trying these stunts? Are they counting the number of college teams that try it versus fail? Basing it off the number of low to high tics seen in the last couple years? (I know stunt skill data does not exist, especially for the NFHS and AACCA, so hmm)

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

While we are on the topic of rule changes, has anyone ever thought about the whole change process and what that entails? We act like they brought back High to High tics due to research, etc to prove that it is safe or should be allowed but like where would they be getting data on HS athletes trying these stunts? Are they counting the number of college teams that try it versus fail? Basing it off the number of low to high tics seen in the last couple years? (I know stunt skill data does not exist, especially for the NFHS and AACCA, so hmm)

Could you point me in the direction where AACCA says high to high ticks are legal? Thanks!

ETA: Never mind found it! But we still can’t rotate

 

[ScottyB]

Could you point me in the direction where AACCA says high to high ticks are legal? Thanks!

ETA: Never mind found it! But we still can’t rotate

Glad ya found it. In time, I am certain spinning will be added with the switching too. That group makes decisions with Progressions in mind. But this def circles back to my other comment about how/why/what is done to determine the changes.

 

[Official OWECheer]

1. 8 or 9-month season (not sure which would be more ideal) for all teams.
2. Nationally uniform rules, divisions and scoresheet, for all HS comps.
3. One Nationals, held in one location, once a year (in a venue capable of holding all of the teams attending without forcing schools from certain regions to travel ridiculous distances), which can only be attended by placing at a certain level at regional (NE, SE, SW, MW, NW) qualifiers.

 

[LittleMissA17]

1. Allowing minimal 3 level pyramids. It’s a major jump if girls wanna do college cheer and it should be kind of taught in HS. Maybe just the simple held split

2. BHS up should be able to hit extension.

3. Flips with 1 brace please. It would help a lot of smaller teams be able to do something.

 

[ScottyB]

Twice in this thread have people said they want 3 high pyramids.
Ya'll, no one does 3 high.

College/Level 6 only do 2.5 high.

This confusion is a big part of why HS is maxed out at 2 high.

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

1. Allowing minimal 3 level pyramids. It’s a major jump if girls wanna do college cheer and it should be kind of taught in HS. Maybe just the simple held split

2. BHS up should be able to hit extension.

3. Flips with 1 brace please. It would help a lot of smaller teams be able to do something.

It would be really cool if all-star rules and and HS rules correlated in some identifiable way. Just to streamline everything.

 

[LittleMissA17]

It would be really cool if all-star rules and and HS rules correlated in some identifiable way. Just to streamline everything.

Totally, since all star seems to be the testing ground to what should be legal in HS. Though I can't really picture levels in HS per say maybe pick a level and let people run with it. (I'd say 4 for nationals level at least)

 

[ScottyB]

Totally, since all star seems to be the testing ground to what should be legal in HS. Though I can't really picture levels in HS per say maybe pick a level and let people run with it. (I'd say 4 for nationals level at least)

In my opinion the big reason for the difference between AS and HS is safety in terms of the surface. HS won't have spring (some states don't even use mats, glares at WV..) due to not wanting any schools to be unable to participate. Though I do wish it was an easier translation from one to the other in terms of skill level-ish.

 

[tojofasho]

1. Require all high school cheerleaders in all states to compete on 9 mats period end of story. These states that compete on hardwood make me so nervous (ahem ahem West Virginia).

2. Have levels at Nationals that correlate to similar levels for allstar gyms. Level 2 = Novice, Level 3 = Intermediate, Level 4+tumbling fulls in tumbling = Advanced. There are some teeny tiny difference that I just get annoyed by with what high schools can/can't do versus their similar allstar counterparts. I think it'd be nice to keep some consistency between the two.

3. Some sort of unbiased judging system (I know...crazy). Maybe submit the number of tumbling passes and skills in advance, get a raw score, and then be deducted for anything you don't actually throw or bobble/fall on. And then obviously judge things like choreography, showmanship, technique/execution the day of. I know this is an issue in allstar too and honestly I hate how drastically my teams' difficulty scores will change from comp to comp. Execution I get, we have off days, but the difficulty gaps are drastic.

But these are all dreams and I know it. Still nice to have hope though.

 

[CheerItFullOut]

Twice in this thread have people said they want 3 high pyramids.
Ya'll, no one does 3 high.

College/Level 6 only do 2.5 high.

This confusion is a big part of why HS is maxed out at 2 high.

I know, I know ... same way people call “two mans” ... “one mans”... I’m sorry, I’m the first one guilty of saying “3 high”... (hand up, SMH)
2.5.... 2.5 is what I meant

 

[CheerItFullOut]

1. Require all high school cheerleaders in all states to compete on 9 mats period end of story. These states that compete on hardwood make me so nervous (ahem ahem West Virginia).

2. Have levels at Nationals that correlate to similar levels for allstar gyms. Level 2 = Novice, Level 3 = Intermediate, Level 4+tumbling fulls in tumbling = Advanced. There are some teeny tiny difference that I just get annoyed by with what high schools can/can't do versus their similar allstar counterparts. I think it'd be nice to keep some consistency between the two.

3. Some sort of unbiased judging system (I know...crazy). Maybe submit the number of tumbling passes and skills in advance, get a raw score, and then be deducted for anything you don't actually throw or bobble/fall on. And then obviously judge things like choreography, showmanship, technique/execution the day of. I know this is an issue in allstar too and honestly I hate how drastically my teams' difficulty scores will change from comp to comp. Execution I get, we have off days, but the difficulty gaps are drastic.

But these are all dreams and I know it. Still nice to have hope though.

No to the “levels”... there would be more sandbagging than there already is at USA Nationals. I’ve always believed you put your best/most advanced skills on that floor hands down... and the only handycap you get is your squad size or school size... none of this “compete to be the best IN YOUR level”... (I liken this to everyone gets a trophy) Compete to be the best of the best and that’s all there is to it.
All Star is different in that it consists of so many age ranges and from the age ranges you can’t control your talent pool as you rely on paid participation. You’re also first and foremost a business so client team allocation and individual development is an additional variable. (IE: You May create a team out of a business need rather than to furnish the particular growth needs of a specific set of kids. ... opening up more spots for kids to join the gym for revenue or helping develop some new talent that isn’t quite ready for the next level)...
this type of level system- ZERO business in HS and kinda gets on my nerves at USA.
Year after year I see kids who are obvious intermediate level kids compete Novice or Advanced kids compete intermediate to win...

I TOTALY agree with your mats comment, 100%
Bizarre that this even goes on

 

[coacha]

1. 8 or 9-month season (not sure which would be more ideal) for all teams.
2. Nationally uniform rules, divisions and scoresheet, for all HS comps.
3. One Nationals, held in one location, once a year (in a venue capable of holding all of the teams attending without forcing schools from certain regions to travel ridiculous distances), which can only be attended by placing at a certain level at regional (NE, SE, SW, MW, NW) qualifiers.

While I get the sentiment behind this, there are too many different styles in HS cheer for 1 nationals. I am UCA-crowd leading, all the way but not everyone is and it would be a nightmare forcing all under one judging style.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I love, love, love, L-O-V-E this thread. It's probably my favorite thing that's been on this board in six months. I've taken every post that's been made since the last time I was on here, quoted, and commented below. One reason that I have enjoyed it, is that it has taken me back to remembering how some of these things came about to begin with. In other cases, I've come to realize that maybe everyone doesn't realize exactly how these rules come about.

I do want to caution everyone against once thing that I've seen as a minor trend here, and that's the statement "like they have in all stars," or similar. There is absolutely nothing "GOOD" going on in the All Star world right now. I firmly believe that social media and the internet lend themselves more to the Negative Nancy's of the world, but if you take a quick look over at the all star board (which I know you all have, but maybe haven't thought about it this way), no one is happy. Event producers aren't happy. Gym owners aren't happy. Coaches aren't happy. Athletes aren't happy. Parents aren't happy. Casual observers aren't happy. If all star cheerleading existed on a continuum from Point A (a chaotic, uncontrolled disaster with no oversight whatsoever) to Point B (an overly regulated, hot mess with too many chiefs and not enough Indians), the USASF picked it up about 1/4 of the distance from Point A and has currently taken it to about 1/10 of the distance from Point B. I would caution everyone against wishing too much all star anything on the HS cheer world.

I want there to not be differing rules. UCA's NHSCC is an official NFHS sanctioned national championship. How can they have rules overstepping each other like this?

Only thing I want is inversions to the top/extended. It's silly my kids have to catch a BHS-up, drop it low enough to count it as prep level then can extend.

Scotty, with your history with Varsity, I honestly would have thought you knew the subtle differences in the processes with NFHS and AACCA. AACCA holds the legal precedent for all of school cheer from collegiate down. In cases of litigation or known catastrophic injury, a representative of AACCA is consulted to determine fault and liability. The National Federation of State High School Associations is a conglomeration of representatives from multiple state athletic associations. NFHS produces rule books for virtually every sanctioned high school athletic activity. If you think the rules differ now, you should have seen them when I was in high school. In the early 90's, AACCA clamped down on the skills allowed at competitions and NFHS relaxed some of their regulations at the behest of AACCA in order to start moving the two sets of rules closer together. Since that time, significant rule changes often come from AACCA first, and then get voted on by NFHS at their annual meeting. The reason we have differences, is because NFHS literally only meets once a year to discuss and vote on such things. AACCA has a much simpler process and can almost make changes on the fly, if they feel the need.

With all of that said, I would venture a guess that another year or two of status quo and the BHS up extended might be legal.

While we are on the topic of rule changes, has anyone ever thought about the whole change process and what that entails? We act like they brought back High to High tics due to research, etc to prove that it is safe or should be allowed but like where would they be getting data on HS athletes trying these stunts? Are they counting the number of college teams that try it versus fail? Basing it off the number of low to high tics seen in the last couple years? (I know stunt skill data does not exist, especially for the NFHS and AACCA, so hmm)

I don't know how well you know Jim Lord, but he actually has access to more injury statistics in terms of cheerleading than you would think. I go to him when I need to make a specific point, such as a debate with one of our athletic trainers about the overall risk of cheerleading in relation to other activities at the school. We are much safer than a lot of people give us credit for.

1. 8 or 9-month season (not sure which would be more ideal) for all teams.
2. Nationally uniform rules, divisions and scoresheet, for all HS comps.
3. One Nationals, held in one location, once a year (in a venue capable of holding all of the teams attending without forcing schools from certain regions to travel ridiculous distances), which can only be attended by placing at a certain level at regional (NE, SE, SW, MW, NW) qualifiers.

1. I think 8 or 9 months is too long. We have a limitation of seasons in KY for "competitive cheer," but it is circumvented by a lot of people using creative verbiage in their calendars (KHSAA doesn't regulate "sideline cheer")

2. With the exceptions of the occasional discrepancy between NFHS and AACCA, we are seeing more of this. I have noticed in the few non UCA competitions I have looked into over the past 2-3 years that EP's are making their high school "Advanced" divisions the same rules as AACCA, and then making "Intermediate" some kind of mash up of the rules.

3. For this to happen, you'd have to get all of the State Associations under NFHS on board and have them put it on. Since they don't do this for any other activity, it's not going to happen for cheerleading anytime in the near future.

1. Allowing minimal 3 level pyramids. It’s a major jump if girls wanna do college cheer and it should be kind of taught in HS. Maybe just the simple held split

2. BHS up should be able to hit extension.

3. Flips with 1 brace please. It would help a lot of smaller teams be able to do something.

1. I don't see 2 1/2 high pyramids as being that big of a jump for the truly skilled elite top. As a gargantuan male, I've obviously never been a truly skilled elite top. Most of the tops that I coach really need more work as bases because they are virtually guaranteed to end up as a mid-level.

2. I think this is a year or two around the corner, as long as we continue to do BHS to prep without a bunch of catastrophic injuries.

3. Smaller teams have plenty they can do. I really don't see this as a big difference maker, and that extra brace really changes the game and keeps the top under control for those coaches who shouldn't be teaching these things anyway.

It would be really cool if all-star rules and and HS rules correlated in some identifiable way. Just to streamline everything.

Two completely different beasts. HS rules under AACCA are actually labeled "high school and below," and must accommodate all of those age groups. Couple that with the wide variety of coaching knowledge/backgrounds that are out there, and you would end up with something like USASF levels. USASF levels have gone from being a good thing to a semi-disaster. When you're using six adjectives to describe what division you're in, there's too many friggin' divisions.

Totally, since all star seems to be the testing ground to what should be legal in HS. Though I can't really picture levels in HS per say maybe pick a level and let people run with it. (I'd say 4 for nationals level at least)

I don't see all star as being the testing ground, but I'm old enough to remember when we could do legit crazy stuff. What happened was, we got out of control, so AACCA clamped down on all of the safety rules. Then over the last 10-15 years they've gradually been loosening them bit by bit looking for that happy medium between creative routines and dangerous routines. The only major restriction they've added in the last 15 years was taking away double downs, and they truly isolated those as causing a lot of concussions in bases and backs.

1. Require all high school cheerleaders in all states to compete on 9 mats period end of story. These states that compete on hardwood make me so nervous (ahem ahem West Virginia).

2. Have levels at Nationals that correlate to similar levels for allstar gyms. Level 2 = Novice, Level 3 = Intermediate, Level 4+tumbling fulls in tumbling = Advanced. There are some teeny tiny difference that I just get annoyed by with what high schools can/can't do versus their similar allstar counterparts. I think it'd be nice to keep some consistency between the two.

3. Some sort of unbiased judging system (I know...crazy). Maybe submit the number of tumbling passes and skills in advance, get a raw score, and then be deducted for anything you don't actually throw or bobble/fall on. And then obviously judge things like choreography, showmanship, technique/execution the day of. I know this is an issue in allstar too and honestly I hate how drastically my teams' difficulty scores will change from comp to comp. Execution I get, we have off days, but the difficulty gaps are drastic.

But these are all dreams and I know it. Still nice to have hope though.

1. I sort of agree with this. My only sticking point is that in order for a school cheer competition to represent school cheer, I feel like we should be doing school cheer things. We cheer on hardwood. I want my kids to tumble, jump, stunt, and go full out on hardwood, because that's the only time that our constituents see us at our best. I understand the desire for mats, but I would be ok if they came to me and said, "we aren't using mats this year." Plus, the trauma nurse in me sees the 2 5/8 inch mat as nothing more than a "feel good" safety device. When talking about catastrophic injury, the mechanism of injury is much more important than the surface area. If you land on your head just right, you're just as dead/paralyzed whether you're on a mat, grass, or concrete.

2. No levels. Nationals should be "bring it or stay home." There are already enough divisions between non-mount, non-tumbling, varsity, coed, and JV. So are you going to have a novice, non-tumbling, medium varsity coed division? That's too much. Then you get into the mess USASF has created with their BS divisions. "Oh, we have a handful of high schools who say they can do advanced stunting but only novice tumbling. Let's make an avanovice division for them." If you have a weak area, compete in the division that doesn't require that skill, or learn to teach it/take lessons.

3. I'm assuming you mean under UCA. Realize that UCA is comparative scoring and that you cannot expect the scores to be the same from competition to competition. The first team in the division basically sets the baseline, and then everyone else is judged off of their score. So if they're phenomenally difficult, they are going to score high. Then if you're not quite as difficult, you'll be a little below them. If you're a little more difficult, you'll score a little above them. I am 100% against anything that resembles that "War and Peace" book that All Stars calls a scoring rubric. Over the last three seasons, we have competed in 2 divisions per season, at a qualifier and at nationals, and a total of something like 9 or 10 performances under UCA. We also, this year, went under UCA judging and scoring for our state-level competition in two divisions. I have compared the scores in every one of those rounds of performance. In every case, encompassing hundreds of total performances, 75%-80% of the scores in every category in every round have fallen within a very narrow range. That's right in line with what we learn in statistics classes about 70 % of large groups falling within one standard deviation of the norm. I've never had a problem with any of our scores at UCA.

No to the “levels”... there would be more sandbagging than there already is at USA Nationals. I’ve always believed you put your best/most advanced skills on that floor hands down... and the only handycap you get is your squad size or school size... none of this “compete to be the best IN YOUR level”... (I liken this to everyone gets a trophy) Compete to be the best of the best and that’s all there is to it.
All Star is different in that it consists of so many age ranges and from the age ranges you can’t control your talent pool as you rely on paid participation. You’re also first and foremost a business so client team allocation and individual development is an additional variable. (IE: You May create a team out of a business need rather than to furnish the particular growth needs of a specific set of kids. ... opening up more spots for kids to join the gym for revenue or helping develop some new talent that isn’t quite ready for the next level)...
this type of level system- ZERO business in HS and kinda gets on my nerves at USA.
Year after year I see kids who are obvious intermediate level kids compete Novice or Advanced kids compete intermediate to win...

I TOTALY agree with your mats comment, 100%
Bizarre that this even goes on

Agree with you about levels.

While I get the sentiment behind this, there are too many different styles in HS cheer for 1 nationals. I am UCA-crowd leading, all the way but not everyone is and it would be a nightmare forcing all under one judging style.

50/50 with you on this one. I know different strokes for different folks, but in my opinion, all that showy performance stuff really isn't what high school cheer should be about.

LOVE this thread.