High School If You Could Magically Have Three Rule Changes...

[ScottyB]

2. Have levels at Nationals that correlate to similar levels for allstar gyms. Level 2 = Novice, Level 3 = Intermediate, Level 4+tumbling fulls in tumbling = Advanced. There are some teeny tiny difference that I just get annoyed by with what high schools can/can't do versus their similar allstar counterparts. I think it'd be nice to keep some consistency between the two.

NOOOOOO!
Cheer needs less divisions if it ever wants to be taken seriously. How can there be a national championship with 50+ titles handed out?

 

[ScottyB]

I do want to caution everyone against once thing that I've seen as a minor trend here, and that's the statement "like they have in all stars," or similar. There is absolutely nothing "GOOD" going on in the All Star world right now. I firmly believe that social media and the internet lend themselves more to the Negative Nancy's of the world, but if you take a quick look over at the all star board (which I know you all have, but maybe haven't thought about it this way), no one is happy. Event producers aren't happy. Gym owners aren't happy. Coaches aren't happy. Athletes aren't happy. Parents aren't happy. Casual observers aren't happy. If all star cheerleading existed on a continuum from Point A (a chaotic, uncontrolled disaster with no oversight whatsoever) to Point B (an overly regulated, hot mess with too many chiefs and not enough Indians), the USASF picked it up about 1/4 of the distance from Point A and has currently taken it to about 1/10 of the distance from Point B. I would caution everyone against wishing too much all star anything on the HS cheer world.

Agreed, and all star is not as big as people believe it to be. Seems like soo many people and teams but its quite limited and niche.

Scotty, with your history with Varsity, I honestly would have thought you knew the subtle differences in the processes with NFHS and AACCA. AACCA holds the legal precedent for all of school cheer from collegiate down. In cases of litigation or known catastrophic injury, a representative of AACCA is consulted to determine fault and liability. The National Federation of State High School Associations is a conglomeration of representatives from multiple state athletic associations. NFHS produces rule books for virtually every sanctioned high school athletic activity. If you think the rules differ now, you should have seen them when I was in high school. In the early 90's, AACCA clamped down on the skills allowed at competitions and NFHS relaxed some of their regulations at the behest of AACCA in order to start moving the two sets of rules closer together. Since that time, significant rule changes often come from AACCA first, and then get voted on by NFHS at their annual meeting. The reason we have differences, is because NFHS literally only meets once a year to discuss and vote on such things. AACCA has a much simpler process and can almost make changes on the fly, if they feel the need.

I don't know how well you know Jim Lord, but he actually has access to more injury statistics in terms of cheerleading than you would think. I go to him when I need to make a specific point, such as a debate with one of our athletic trainers about the overall risk of cheerleading in relation to other activities at the school. We are much safer than a lot of people give us credit for.

Legit that consists of maybe 8-12 people total. Most of the time its like 3-4 in casual meetings. And I know we are safe and have injury stats to go on. But there isn't data related to injuries from low to high tics versus high to high tics. That's the focus I am speaking about. (Used to sit down the hall from Jim lol)

If you could have three rule changes to high school cheer, what would they be?

Summer on the boards is here. Let’s all daydream before reality kicks in.

And another dream rule to add: no more mandatory credentialing

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Agreed, and all star is not as big as people believe it to be. Seems like soo many people and teams but its quite limited and niche.




Legit that consists of maybe 8-12 people total. Most of the time its like 3-4 in casual meetings. And I know we are safe and have injury stats to go on. But there isn't data related to injuries from low to high tics versus high to high tics. That's the focus I am speaking about. (Used to sit down the hall from Jim lol)


And another dream rule to add: no more mandatory credentialing

If you mean the “have to go to camp thing,” agreed.

EVERY TIME I think I’ve saved my kids/parents a few bucks, BOOM, gotta do this, AND we’ve raised the price of nationals $30 a head.

ETA: back to your point about tick tocks. They were legal in AACCA 20-ish years ago. They came out when NFHS agreed to the “switch up,” which progressed to the “low to high,” then to the twisting switch up, then to the twisting low to hi; and as we haven’t seen significant injuries in those skills, I believe high to highs are the next logical step. I think, as opposed to having isolated statistics from individual skills, it’s much more efficient to continue to do these trial runs over a year or two and allow skills gradually. The rapid changing of rules in USASF, has been one of their downfalls. Plus, who would track every individual skill? Lastly, this is much more like what we see in Varsity sports like baseball: I remember when they developed the NOCSAE standard for catchers equipment. It was at least a three year period of working old equipment out and new equipment in. Kind of, “let’s make sure we are headed in the right direction before we dive in head first.”

 

[Official OWECheer]

@OldskoolKYcheercoach what would you suggest for an ideal season length, and why?

 

[ScottyB]

If you mean the “have to go to camp thing,” agreed.

EVERY TIME I think I’ve saved my kids/parents a few bucks, BOOM, gotta do this, AND we’ve raised the price of nationals $30 a head.

ETA: back to your point about tick tocks. They were legal in AACCA 20-ish years ago. They came out when NFHS agreed to the “switch up,” which progressed to the “low to high,” then to the twisting switch up, then to the twisting low to hi; and as we haven’t seen significant injuries in those skills, I believe high to highs are the next logical step. I think, as opposed to having isolated statistics from individual skills, it’s much more efficient to continue to do these trial runs over a year or two and allow skills gradually. The rapid changing of rules in USASF, has been one of their downfalls. Plus, who would track every individual skill? Lastly, this is much more like what we see in Varsity sports like baseball: I remember when they developed the NOCSAE standard for catchers equipment. It was at least a three year period of working old equipment out and new equipment in. Kind of, “let’s make sure we are headed in the right direction before we dive in head first.”

cheer def needs more data in every facet of the sport lol

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

I may be the only person who may be interested in seeing double downs back. Possibly.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

@OldskoolKYcheercoach what would you suggest for an ideal season length, and why?

You must be trying to get me on some kind of hit list.

Virtually every real sport in our state has a competitive season from 2-4 months long.

The problem with cheer is: we need our teams for football AND basketball season.

The issue I have is that virtually every reliable source says it’s better for kids to be multi-sport athletes than to “specialize.” Yet we have a cheer season that makes that ALMOST in possible. We compete, mostly, during football season in KY (state comp is second week of December, which is a week after football state). Then we have about 1000 games and NHSCC prep during basketball season. Then by the time basketball season is good and over, softball conditioning/practice has started. So the only thing my kids have felt like they could do is run track in the late spring.

I’ve finally just taken one for the team, so to speak, and told them: do your thing. So, this year I’m making concessions for a golfer and a volley ball player in the fall. We will see how that goes. Meanwhile, our local city school has a basketball player who is only cheering girls games so he can play for the boys basketball team.

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

No to the “levels”... there would be more sandbagging than there already is at USA Nationals. I’ve always believed you put your best/most advanced skills on that floor hands down... and the only handycap you get is your squad size or school size... none of this “compete to be the best IN YOUR level”... (I liken this to everyone gets a trophy) Compete to be the best of the best and that’s all there is to it.
All Star is different in that it consists of so many age ranges and from the age ranges you can’t control your talent pool as you rely on paid participation. You’re also first and foremost a business so client team allocation and individual development is an additional variable. (IE: You May create a team out of a business need rather than to furnish the particular growth needs of a specific set of kids. ... opening up more spots for kids to join the gym for revenue or helping develop some new talent that isn’t quite ready for the next level)...
this type of level system- ZERO business in HS and kinda gets on my nerves at USA.
Year after year I see kids who are obvious intermediate level kids compete Novice or Advanced kids compete intermediate to win...

I TOTALY agree with your mats comment, 100%
Bizarre that this even goes on

I kinda sorta understand the difference in difficulty levels. USA does that (novice, intermediate, advanced) and yeah, it can be a little much. It does follow what I call “beauty pageant rules” in that everyone gets a trophy especially when coupled with the size divisions and JV/varsity categories (so you have “third place in the JV novice division” bla bla bla...).

That said, it gives newer programs that don’t really have their skills and strategy lined up yet a chance to bring home a trophy or, at the very least, go into it feeling like they might have a shot at a trophy. And plus, cheer is a business. The more opportunities you create for teams to go home happy, the more likely they’ll come back next year.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I kinda sorta understand the difference in difficulty levels. USA does that (novice, intermediate, advanced) and yeah, it can be a little much. It does follow what I call “beauty pageant rules” in that everyone gets a trophy especially when coupled with the size divisions and JV/varsity categories (so you have “third place in the JV novice division” bla bla bla...).

That said, it gives newer programs that don’t really have their skills and strategy lined up yet a chance to bring home a trophy or, at the very least, go into it feeling like they might have a shot at a trophy. And plus, cheer is a business. The more opportunities you create for teams to go home happy, the more likely they’ll come back next year.

Newer programs need to pay their dues like the rest of us did.

If they don’t come back because they dont have a chance at a trophy, and they aren’t willing to work towards getting a trophy, so be it. They are missing the whole lesson on “athletics requires hard work and sacrifice.”

 

[ScottyB]

That said, it gives newer programs that don’t really have their skills and strategy lined up yet a chance to bring home a trophy or, at the very least, go into it feeling like they might have a shot at a trophy. And plus, cheer is a business. The more opportunities you create for teams to go home happy, the more likely they’ll come back next year.

THIS. Are we competing in high school athletics or for customer service trophies?
(not targeted at you @Sterling von Shimmer, just speaking generally!)

 

[coacha]

That said, it gives newer programs that don’t really have their skills and strategy lined up yet a chance to bring home a trophy or, at the very least, go into it feeling like they might have a shot at a trophy. And plus, cheer is a business. The more opportunities you create for teams to go home happy, the more likely they’ll come back next year.

Meh...there are Varsity sports at my high school that haven't made the playoffs for years. Our girls basketball team has won like 2 games in 2 YEARS. No one suggests having a "Novice" division for any other high school sports teams that can't seem to get their acts together. (Heck, they let the Browns stay in the NFL!)

And yes, winning is fun. It is, however, not the be all end all for high school sports. (Professional, yes, but then again see the Browns.) And this is coming from a coach of a strictly "average" cheer team.

 

[tojofasho]

Realized I didn't specify with my post that I was talking about USA Nationals, not UCA Nationals - my team has never competed UCA and will most likely never be the caliber to do so. There is no culture that supports cheer in our state, which makes it difficult for programs to grow and leaves even our top programs unable to get past prelims or (on rare occasions) semis at UCA. I was mostly speaking to USA Nationals and the levels that they have for Novice/Intermediate/Advanced; the lines between the three levels sort of blur and it can be confusing at times to determine whether or not something is legal in one level.

I do agree there is significant sandbagging at USA Nationals, which is a bummer, but it also is a huge opportunity for the teams who have no shot at ever getting to the advanced level necessary for UCA Nationals to still have an end of season competition. Hell, I'd be totally fine with it not being called Nationals, and just some generic term, but I do think the divisions are important for programs who are in less-than-supportive states to compete against equally talented teams (for example, none of the middle schools that feed into the school I coach at even offer cheerleading, and the closest allstar gym is an hour away, which means pretty much every freshman I get is brand new to cheerleading). I would absolutely kill to be coaching in a state with incredible high school cheer programs, but we have to make do with what we have over here.

TLDR: Keep UCA Nationals with fewer divisions, it is the only Nationals I really consider to be the true high school nationals and should remain prestigious. Make USA Nationals divisions more clear and similar to the levels stated for allstar cheer, maybe change the name so it isn't "Nationals" anymore. Mostly just so teams can have a competition where they are against teams that are actually around the same skill level.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Realized I didn't specify with my post that I was talking about USA Nationals, not UCA Nationals - my team has never competed UCA and will most likely never be the caliber to do so. There is no culture that supports cheer in our state, which makes it difficult for programs to grow and leaves even our top programs unable to get past prelims or (on rare occasions) semis at UCA. I was mostly speaking to USA Nationals and the levels that they have for Novice/Intermediate/Advanced; the lines between the three levels sort of blur and it can be confusing at times to determine whether or not something is legal in one level.

I do agree there is significant sandbagging at USA Nationals, which is a bummer, but it also is a huge opportunity for the teams who have no shot at ever getting to the advanced level necessary for UCA Nationals to still have an end of season competition. Hell, I'd be totally fine with it not being called Nationals, and just some generic term, but I do think the divisions are important for programs who are in less-than-supportive states to compete against equally talented teams (for example, none of the middle schools that feed into the school I coach at even offer cheerleading, and the closest allstar gym is an hour away, which means pretty much every freshman I get is brand new to cheerleading). I would absolutely kill to be coaching in a state with incredible high school cheer programs, but we have to make do with what we have over here.

TLDR: Keep UCA Nationals with fewer divisions, it is the only Nationals I really consider to be the true high school nationals and should remain prestigious. Make USA Nationals divisions more clear and similar to the levels stated for allstar cheer, maybe change the name so it isn't "Nationals" anymore. Mostly just so teams can have a competition where they are against teams that are actually around the same skill level.

Understood.

Given the situation you just described, I would challenge/encourage you to really think outside the box about ways you could potentially increase the pool of kids from which you draw your competition team. Think outside the box about ways to make your team culture attractive to people who hate cheerleaders (that’s how I started to think about our culture at one school with a very poor feeder system: “what could I do to draw a great athlete who hates cheerleaders but is willing to TALK to me because they’ve heard what our TEAM is like?” Consider the non-tumbling division (it’s much easier to develop stunting skills than tumbling). I would LOVE to be in your shoes. I would see it as an opportunity to be a trend-setter, as opposed to being in KY where I feel like I’m being pressured constantly to achieve in 5-10 years what other programs have achieved in 20.

 

[FamousxMindset]

Virginia essentially has 2.5- 3 month competitive season, and it is actually terrible. I feel like we don't give the coaches/nor the kids a chance to perfect and be able to safely execute the skills required for the demanding rubric.

 

[CheerItFullOut]

Realized I didn't specify with my post that I was talking about USA Nationals, not UCA Nationals - my team has never competed UCA and will most likely never be the caliber to do so. There is no culture that supports cheer in our state, which makes it difficult for programs to grow and leaves even our top programs unable to get past prelims or (on rare occasions) semis at UCA. I was mostly speaking to USA Nationals and the levels that they have for Novice/Intermediate/Advanced; the lines between the three levels sort of blur and it can be confusing at times to determine whether or not something is legal in one level.

I do agree there is significant sandbagging at USA Nationals, which is a bummer, but it also is a huge opportunity for the teams who have no shot at ever getting to the advanced level necessary for UCA Nationals to still have an end of season competition. Hell, I'd be totally fine with it not being called Nationals, and just some generic term, but I do think the divisions are important for programs who are in less-than-supportive states to compete against equally talented teams (for example, none of the middle schools that feed into the school I coach at even offer cheerleading, and the closest allstar gym is an hour away, which means pretty much every freshman I get is brand new to cheerleading). I would absolutely kill to be coaching in a state with incredible high school cheer programs, but we have to make do with what we have over here.

TLDR: Keep UCA Nationals with fewer divisions, it is the only Nationals I really consider to be the true high school nationals and should remain prestigious. Make USA Nationals divisions more clear and similar to the levels stated for allstar cheer, maybe change the name so it isn't "Nationals" anymore. Mostly just so teams can have a competition where they are against teams that are actually around the same skill level.

I TOTALY get you.. we are the same way, we have no middle school or youth leagues that feed into our program. We get kids in who pretty much have little to no knowledge of how to do a prep. No real AllStar gym for 60 Miles so tumbling is a rarity.

Don’t ever say NEVER regarding UCA...
We are/were you
Keep working hard and never settle.
I do agree USA has very blurred lines between divisions but it’s because they put more emphasis on “flare”... and choreo than on actual difficulty. USA would like to see a creative routine executed with a lot of flash rather than a simple one with a lot of difficulty. I actually attended a score sheet change meeting with USA and essentially their difficulty rebruic stops at a “Full up”... so you could execute beautiful high to highs and if a team had full ups and added some visuals like a ripple or choreod hair whip they would win.
Same with the lower levels in USA... nailing a skill at the top of the intermediate/novice skill “bracket” doesn’t constitute a good technical and difficulty score if it isn’t visual... and while you have to maximize the number of individuals performing a skill...(i.e. utilizing your mat numbers) a front spot is just as relevant as having an extra stunt group (w/o a front) executing the skill. <——- which is insane to me.
So In novice you can have 5 prep level libs (with front spots) possibly out score 5 prep level stretches without front spots.?!?!
The score sheet lends itself to bias.