Is This A Normal 'new To All Star Cheer' Experience

[newtocheer]

My daughter is new to all star cheer after cheering for several years at the rec level. We have been to 3 competitions so far this season and her team has come in last place at every one. I don't expect them to win but is very discouraging to come in last place. Of course this affects the morale of the team and the girls aren't happy. I feel like I am spending a lot of money to lose. Do I have unrealistic expectations or should we start thinking about other options for next year?

 

[DaniV]

I would say it depends on what you are looking to get out of a team.... is your only sole purpose to be on a team that wins? Are there other redeeming qualities of the team she is on now? (friends, positive coach role models, gaining new skills in a safe environment, cost, time etc). How does your child feel about her placement? When my kids are upset with their placement, I ask them how they felt when they walked off the floor. To me, that feeling right there is more important than how you feel at awards.

There can only be one winner for each division. Your gym may have chosen to only attend larger, more prestigious events that a lot of really good teams attend. There are a lot of factors that play in to "not winning" and I would say, take a step back and look at the big picture not just the trophy.

 

[cheer25mom]

We have been in all stars for 5 years. CP has been on a team that won every competition all season, a team that came in last everywhere we went, and several that were in between. It is discouraging when they keep coming in last for sure. When they keep getting last, I think you need to evaluate WHY they are coming in last to decide what you want to do about it. In CP's case, the gym had just changed ownership, and we lost a lost of athletes as a result. The coaching was good, but we just didn't have enough girls with the skills necessary to meet the level requirements for level 2, and didn't have enough under skilled girls for a level 1 team. It was a no win situation. We stuck it out for another year, and she was on a a team that had appropriate skills and placed top 3 almost everywhere.
You also have to consider what the gym's goal is. Do they want to attend little competitions and win, win, win, or are they looking to push their kids to something bigger and better? We are a gym that attends larger well known competitions with the understanding that we are a David in a room of Goliaths and we aren't going to win every division every time. The idea is that we are striving to push our athletes to be able to compete with the "big boys", and a lot of the time we hold our own. This weekend CP's team was second, but the first place team was from a gym 3 times our size that is a perpetual top 5 finisher at worlds. Our biggest competition in town is a gym that likes to advertise all the "first place" finishes they get, but don't disclose that they are at small local competitions with gyms less than half their size, and often their level 3, 4 and 5 teams are the only ones in their division. They want the win no matter what.

If it is a case of coaches that don't care or a gym wide pattern of placing kids on teams they aren't skilled for then I would be looking for a new gym next season. If it is a young/ inexperienced level 1 team that just doesn't have enough skills or a small gym that did the best they could placing the athletes they had, I might stick with it another year.

 

[newtocheer]

We have been in all stars for 5 years. CP has been on a team that won every competition all season, a team that came in last everywhere we went, and several that were in between. It is discouraging when they keep coming in last for sure. When they keep getting last, I think you need to evaluate WHY they are coming in last to decide what you want to do about it. In CP's case, the gym had just changed ownership, and we lost a lost of athletes as a result. The coaching was good, but we just didn't have enough girls with the skills necessary to meet the level requirements for level 2, and didn't have enough under skilled girls for a level 1 team. It was a no win situation. We stuck it out for another year, and she was on a a team that had appropriate skills and placed top 3 almost everywhere.
You also have to consider what the gym's goal is. Do they want to attend little competitions and win, win, win, or are they looking to push their kids to something bigger and better? We are a gym that attends larger well known competitions with the understanding that we are a David in a room of Goliaths and we aren't going to win every division every time. The idea is that we are striving to push our athletes to be able to compete with the "big boys", and a lot of the time we hold our own. This weekend CP's team was second, but the first place team was from a gym 3 times our size that is a perpetual top 5 finisher at worlds. Our biggest competition in town is a gym that likes to advertise all the "first place" finishes they get, but don't disclose that they are at small local competitions with gyms less than half their size, and often their level 3, 4 and 5 teams are the only ones in their division. They want the win no matter what.

If it is a case of coaches that don't care or a gym wide pattern of placing kids on teams they aren't skilled for then I would be looking for a new gym next season. If it is a young/ inexperienced level 1 team that just doesn't have enough skills or a small gym that did the best they could placing the athletes they had, I might stick with it another year.

You've given me some encouragement, and some things to think about. Ultimately I think that communication is the biggest issue. I feel like we are in competitions that are out of our league but perhaps the gym owner is thinking "David in a room of Goliaths" like you suggested. Maybe he is preparing them to be resilient competitors not intimidated by bigger gyms. Unfortunately he hasn't communicated that to the kids or the parents. I think that if we knew his goals and approach to comps, we would feel better about it. Thank you for giving me that perspective. (communication is a common discussion point among parents)

It is a very small gym and in some respects they placed people where they could. I suspect that some people are on teams that they were not ready for. But it's not gross negligence or blatant favoritism. I think the coaches really do care about the kids and the teams.

 

[newtocheer]

I would say it depends on what you are looking to get out of a team.... is your only sole purpose to be on a team that wins? Are there other redeeming qualities of the team she is on now? (friends, positive coach role models, gaining new skills in a safe environment, cost, time etc). How does your child feel about her placement? When my kids are upset with their placement, I ask them how they felt when they walked off the floor. To me, that feeling right there is more important than how you feel at awards.

There can only be one winner for each division. Your gym may have chosen to only attend larger, more prestigious events that a lot of really good teams attend. There are a lot of factors that play in to "not winning" and I would say, take a step back and look at the big picture not just the trophy.

You've reminded me of why she joined an all star gym to begin with, friends, exercise, proximity and working on skills. I think both me and my CP enjoyed the preseason more than the comp season.

And you are right, the feeling when she walks off the floor is the most important. Last comp she walked off the mat and thought they nailed it. She only knew how she did as an athlete, she didn't know what happened with other stunt groups etc.

Our gym is definately attending large comps. Another poster offered a perspective that I find helpful, yet I still see how the continued losses affect the morale of the team.

 

[catlady]

Of course this affects the morale of the team and the girls aren't happy.

Ultimately I think that communication is the biggest issue. ......but perhaps the gym owner is thinking....... Maybe he is preparing them to be........ Unfortunately he hasn't communicated that to the kids or the parents. I think that if we knew his goals and approach to comps.....

"Morale" and "girls aren't happy", along with no communication makes the answer clear to me as to what I would do. At the beginning of the year, the gym staff should have told you what to expect in exchange for your money. Whether their goal is to be "the competitive", "the technique" or "the fun" gym, you and your athlete should know exactly what their goal is for the season. IMO, "yes", you should be looking for an alternative next year. You paid thousands of dollars for a package for your daughter and now that the package is opened, you are staring at the contents with no instructions or idea what it is meant to do. That wouldn't fly at Best Buy or Target, it shouldn't when it comes to gyms either.

 

[Cheer Dad]

Out of curiosity, do you know why you are coming in last all the time? Forget the small gym attending big comps theory as I have seen small programs be very competitive with large programs.

Do your teams just not have difficulty, lack of technique, legalities.....?


**Quietly waiting to let the dogs out**

 

[SL&AM]

Let me off some perspective from 2 different situations at 2 different gyms.

When CP first joined this wild crazy sport the coaches we had actually had backgrounds in cheer, but it was a military based program and people move. Unexpectedly we lost not 1, but both of those coaches and in stepped a gymnastics coach who did not excel in a cheer environment. When we first went to a competition the difference was impossible to miss, but where I took issue was instead of the coach stepping in and fixing problems from the judges comments, she refused to change anything. Eventually tensions erupted between the parents and the coach and she quit. Replacements were made, but it was too late. This is the type of season I would never push through again---I can absolutely take placing last, what I refuse to accept is a coaching staff who can't accept fault and won't attempt to help the kids fix their issues. Whether it be building up skills, drilling motions, working on jumps, or tumbling technique...etc; no one should expect a miracle, but you should see progress in some area from the start of the season to the end.

Where we are now recently had a team take last. When I made a comment to a mom that their routine wasn't difficult enough she looked like I'd slapped her---but the results were posted, with the scores, and they lost based off numbers. When I asked the next week if things were going well she launched into all the changes and things that were being added into the routine---she seemed happy and I would be too if I were in her shoes.

Judging is subjective, so taking the comments, reflecting and acting are things I look for in a gym. Without that, I don't think we could stay.

For this season, I'd definitely have your CP make a short and long term goal for herself and work towards those so that she doesn't feel like it's a wasted season.

 

[Leigh31]

We've been on teams that have won and teams that have lost, and really some years are more successful than others. But, to me, it is important that you have faith in the coaching staff, owner and direction of the gym that you are in a position where you could win. At our old gym, there were times we knew our difficulty was not high enough that even with a hit they had a slim chance of winning, and the team was not prepared or trained well enough to step up the difficulty. I don't think I would base my decision on the results of 3 comps, but rather everything else you see in the gym.

 

[catlady]

Sorry for the double post but, since you are looking for the "normal" cheer experience I do want to add that the majority of cheer parents aren't able to identify technique, difficulty, and legality issues even after several years.

"Normal" at most gyms is that the coach goes thoroughly over the score sheet with the athletes, and depending on how well your child communicates with you, they should be able to tell you what they are going to be working on next to improve their score. A very good coach, IMO, emails the parents (especially on younger teams) after a competition and tells them where the team has improved, what they need to work on, and a realistic goal for the next competition. A realistic goal if you have a level 1 team of 15 kids and 3 have back walkovers, is perhaps to have 4-5 back walkovers (if they're close to getting it) by the next competition. Five back walkovers may still only be last place but, the key is communication of goals and expectations.

 

[newtocheer]

Out of curiosity, do you know why you are coming in last all the time? Forget the small gym attending big comps theory as I have seen small programs be very competitive with large programs.

Do your teams just not have difficulty, lack of technique, legalities.....?


**Quietly waiting to let the dogs out**

I don't know the official or objective reason that we are coming in last. I guess that is a reflection of the lack of communication from the gym.

As a spectator, I will say that other teams routines are more entertaining. In terms of level of difficulty etc... I just don't know. I'm a new parent to the sport and don't have training. But in addition to being a small gym, we have a small team of 11. When we compete against teams with 19 athletes, they fill the space better and appear to be able to do more interesting stunts than what our 11 can do. That's just my untrained opinion.

 

[Cheer Dad]

I don't know the official or objective reason that we are coming in last. I guess that is a reflection of the lack of communication from the gym.

As a spectator, I will say that other teams routines are more entertaining. In terms of level of difficulty etc... I just don't know. I'm a new parent to the sport and don't have training. But in addition to being a small gym, we have a small team of 11. When we compete against teams with 19 athletes, they fill the space better and appear to be able to do more interesting stunts than what our 11 can do. That's just my untrained opinion.

The difficulty of skills in the routine has more to do with scoring than the number of athletes. A small team can score just a high as a large team since the number of skills required is based on the number of athletes on the team.

If your routines are boring compared to others, slow in pace for the skills used and long time between them it is possible the team just isn't prepared for competitions or the level they are competing at.

I agree a good gym will give the kids feedback from the scoresheets so they know where to improve.

Please feel free to ask many questions as there are many people willing to help you learn more and understand this crazy sport we are all involved in.


**Quietly waiting to let the dogs out**

 

[BlockHead]

I don't know the official or objective reason that we are coming in last. I guess that is a reflection of the lack of communication from the gym.

As a spectator, I will say that other teams routines are more entertaining. In terms of level of difficulty etc... I just don't know. I'm a new parent to the sport and don't have training. But in addition to being a small gym, we have a small team of 11. When we compete against teams with 19 athletes, they fill the space better and appear to be able to do more interesting stunts than what our 11 can do. That's just my untrained opinion.

Don't let the lower number of athletes on your team vs other gyms intimidate you. My daughter cheers at a pretty successful larger gym (about 350 kids). Her team last year was considered better than average. We had 24 kids on her team, and they got CREAMED by a team that only had 7 kids on their squad. She is on a large squad again this year. Our biggest nightmare would be going up against a team of 11 because of the scoring system. Smaller teams often have the advantage.

 

[cheer25mom]

Don't let the lower number of athletes on your team vs other gyms intimidate you. My daughter cheers at a pretty successful larger gym (about 350 kids). Her team last year was considered better than average. We had 24 kids on her team, and they got CREAMED by a team that only had 7 kids on their squad. She is on a large squad again this year. Our biggest nightmare would be going up against a team of 11 because of the scoring system. Smaller teams often have the advantage.

That's only true if the small team hits everything. When you have 3 stunt groups and one makes a mistake 1/3 of your stunts didn't hit. It has a large impact in both difficulty and execution scores. If you have 7 stunt groups and one makes a mistake, it's 1/7 of that score.


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[Cheer Dad]

That's only true if the small team hits everything. When you have 3 stunt groups and one makes a mistake 1/3 of your stunts didn't hit. It has a large impact in both difficulty and execution scores. If you have 7 stunt groups and one makes a mistake, it's 1/7 of that score.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It's 1/7th but the deduction is the same. There is no penalty because it is 1/3 of the stunts compared to 1/7.


**Quietly waiting to let the dogs out**