All-Star It's Happening All Over; Not Just In Cheerleading

[tumbleyoda]

Definitely didn't intend to rate negatively. Must have been a scrolling user error. Apologies.

Not a problem. Just thought I would ask.

 

[ChicagoCheerDad]

It's hard to tell, AS has already hit some ceilings with mega comps. They are occupying some of the largest convention centers across the US and maxed out on play hours per day for a 2 day weekend. Between cost, school and hotel link releases becoming the sport version of Cyber Monday, the parents (and I think most gyms) are ready for a transition. With World's/Summit and the ability to get bids at both one and two day comps, there really isn't a need for all of these other "National" titles anymore, we just have to be weaned from that mentality. People may have been laughing at those pre-season Nfinity rankings, but from an EP point of view, people were talking and showing interest, excitement and disappointment in virtual numbers that didn't even have a performance linked to them. The rankings were meaningless, but the conversation told them everything they needed to know.

I couldn't disagree more with the first part of this statement, the 2 largest convention centers in the country are typically unused by Cheer, as an example McCormick Place in IL with the brand new Wintrust Arena could host 7-8 floors at the same time, twice what Dallas does, the Sands and Las Vegas Convention Center is largely unused for cheer. The current limiting factor on the size of these competitions is the historical loyalty to these venues such as Dallas and Indy. Now the costs to go into these venues will likely skyrocket travel costs, it won't be a positive when this type of change happens.

As long as gym owners continue to believe that winning or competing at Worlds or the Summit is the best thing for their business we are stuck chasing bids and national titles. The problem for the gym owners is kids have social media, and are aware of the difference between, The One and The Summit, or NCA and Xtreme Spirit.

 

[ScottyB]

I couldn't disagree more with the first part of this statement, the 2 largest convention centers in the country are typically unused by Cheer, as an example McCormick Place in IL with the brand new Wintrust Arena could host 7-8 floors at the same time, twice what Dallas does, the Sands and Las Vegas Convention Center is largely unused for cheer. The current limiting factor on the size of these competitions is the historical loyalty to these venues such as Dallas and Indy. Now the costs to go into these venues will likely skyrocket travel costs, it won't be a positive when this type of change happens.

Interesting thought. Our traditional venues and event locations are now hurting all of us because those cities/centers know we'll pay an arm and a leg to keep the branding/appeal/history aligned. Makes sense on top, EPs don't bargain shop because they know customers expect to be at X Venue or Y Convention Center.

Other side of this argument is that: are changes made to the venue going to ruin the logistics set in place after many years of the EP using it? That is a major worry for EPs. TV and AV, Spectators, Concessions, Bathrooms, Judges, Lighting, ADA, etc all build up and changing the venue makes those changes ripple out.

 

[catlady]

I couldn't disagree more with the first part of this statement, the 2 largest convention centers in the country are typically unused by Cheer, as an example McCormick Place in IL with the brand new Wintrust Arena could host 7-8 floors at the same time, twice what Dallas does, the Sands and Las Vegas Convention Center is largely unused for cheer. The current limiting factor on the size of these competitions is the historical loyalty to these venues such as Dallas and Indy. Now the costs to go into these venues will likely skyrocket travel costs, it won't be a positive when this type of change happens.

As long as gym owners continue to believe that winning or competing at Worlds or the Summit is the best thing for their business we are stuck chasing bids and national titles. The problem for the gym owners is kids have social media, and are aware of the difference between, The One and The Summit, or NCA and Xtreme Spirit.

No disrespect, but I took into consideration most people realize some venues and cities are more cost effective than others. I'm not sure how you came up with 7-8 floors would be twice that of Atlanta or Dallas being that they both run 6 floors, but the top seven largest convention centers are below with their square footage. The new Wintrust arena seats 10,000 Kay Bailey arena seats 9816, so more square footage doesn't always translate into substantially more seating.

As far as your comment, "As long as gym owners continue to believe that winning or competing at Worlds or the Summit is the best thing for their business we are stuck chasing bids and national titles," you are failing to acknowledge, or fail to realize, business owners react to their customers and not the reverse. Parents and athletes have HS, Rec, Prep and AS to choose from, parents aren't "stuck chasing bids and national titles", parents "choose" to chase them.

McCormick Place, Chicago: 2,700,000
Orange County Convention Center, Orlando: 2,539,559
Las Vegas Convention Center: 2.157,235
Georgia World Congress Center, Atlanta: 1,673,563
New Orleans Morial Convention Center: 1,508,763
Sands Expo and Convention Center, Las Vegas: 1,326,807
Kay Bailey Hutchison, Dallas: 1,116,307

ETA: The Indianapolis Convention Center square footage is/was increasing to 1.2M, but another thing you have to take into consideration is air traffic. Indy is a nice airport, but it's small.

 

[UCFKnights07]

im kinda surprised worlds hasnt looked into moving it to the orange county convention center, its more conveniently located near multiple (probably more affordable) hotels, its situated nicely in the middle of disney and universal/international drive. It would make worlds set up more like cheersport, which would make the competition flow easier.
cost wise i have no clue how much they are paying disney to use their facilities, and after so many years maybe disney is giving it to them for cheap at this point.... but it cant be any cheaper then what it would cost to rent out a few halls at the convention center.

whether it would lower the cost as a whole for families... i think it might help a little, simply because parents wouldnt feel pressured to do all the disney things that you tend to be surrounded by when down in that direction.

 

[OnceUponACheerleader]

im kinda surprised worlds hasnt looked into moving it to the orange county convention center, its more conveniently located near multiple (probably more affordable) hotels, its situated nicely in the middle of disney and universal/international drive. It would make worlds set up more like cheersport, which would make the competition flow easier.
cost wise i have no clue how much they are paying disney to use their facilities, and after so many years maybe disney is giving it to them for cheap at this point.... but it cant be any cheaper then what it would cost to rent out a few halls at the convention center.

whether it would lower the cost as a whole for families... i think it might help a little, simply because parents would feel pressured to do all the disney things that you tend to be surrounded by when down in that direction.

I would imagine the USASF has a mandate/ contract with disney. I believe it has been discussed on the boards before. Hence why it has never moved locations

 

[ScottyB]

im kinda surprised worlds hasnt looked into moving it to the orange county convention center, its more conveniently located near multiple (probably more affordable) hotels, its situated nicely in the middle of disney and universal/international drive. It would make worlds set up more like cheersport, which would make the competition flow easier.
cost wise i have no clue how much they are paying disney to use their facilities, and after so many years maybe disney is giving it to them for cheap at this point.... but it cant be any cheaper then what it would cost to rent out a few halls at the convention center.

whether it would lower the cost as a whole for families... i think it might help a little, simply because parents wouldnt feel pressured to do all the disney things that you tend to be surrounded by when down in that direction.

Worlds and Varsity events aren't leaving disney unless one of them decides to break their contract. Which is an epic of a contract if I recall...

 

[SL&AM]

Worlds and Varsity events aren't leaving disney unless one of them decides to break their contract. Which is an epic of a contract if I recall...

Wouldn't it also jeopardize their contract with ESPN?

 

[ScottyB]

Wouldn't it also jeopardize their contract with ESPN?

That's a separate contract with mostly separate people. Bristol versus Buena Vista. But you are right in wondering if it would hurt the relationship somewhat. But then again you have to remember that Varsity and the USASF pay ESPN/CBS for those show slots so ESPN would probably move on and get someone else pretty quick.

 

[ChicagoCheerDad]

No disrespect, but I took into consideration most people realize some venues and cities are more cost effective than others. I'm not sure how you came up with 7-8 floors would be twice that of Atlanta or Dallas being that they both run 6 floors, but the top seven largest convention centers are below with their square footage. The new Wintrust arena seats 10,000 Kay Bailey arena seats 9816, so more square footage doesn't always translate into substantially more seating.

As far as your comment, "As long as gym owners continue to believe that winning or competing at Worlds or the Summit is the best thing for their business we are stuck chasing bids and national titles," you are failing to acknowledge, or fail to realize, business owners react to their customers and not the reverse. Parents and athletes have HS, Rec, Prep and AS to choose from, parents aren't "stuck chasing bids and national titles", parents "choose" to chase them.

McCormick Place, Chicago: 2,700,000
Orange County Convention Center, Orlando: 2,539,559
Las Vegas Convention Center: 2.157,235
Georgia World Congress Center, Atlanta: 1,673,563
New Orleans Morial Convention Center: 1,508,763
Sands Expo and Convention Center, Las Vegas: 1,326,807
Kay Bailey Hutchison, Dallas: 1,116,307

ETA: The Indianapolis Convention Center square footage is/was increasing to 1.2M, but another thing you have to take into consideration is air traffic. Indy is a nice airport, but it's small.

I think you actually proved my point and not disproved it, yes I missed the Orange County Convention Center as #2, but the you proved Vegas it almost twice the size of Dallas and McCormick place is more than 2.5 times the size. So if you want to do back of the envelope math here, in Dallas you run 6 floors at the same time plus warm ups, awards etc, what is 2 to 2.5 times the space going to give you, I guess that could be 12 to 18 floors(I was being conservative in my floor estimates before).

Don't get me wrong these are great facilities in and I love visiting my friends from College, but my point was that these EPs are only capped by the contracts with the venues they are currently using that have historical location/significance to those companies or brands. Eventually they will be faced with the option of not being able to grow or changing locations. It is unfortunate and nobody wants to be competing/traveling to Chicago in January/Feburary or making another trip to Orlando, and I don't even want to think what the hotel and labor costs might be, but these larger venues are where the growth will be and Varsity will want to continue to grow these very profitable events..

 

[ChicagoCheerDad]

Interesting thought. Our traditional venues and event locations are now hurting all of us because those cities/centers know we'll pay an arm and a leg to keep the branding/appeal/history aligned. Makes sense on top, EPs don't bargain shop because they know customers expect to be at X Venue or Y Convention Center.

Other side of this argument is that: are changes made to the venue going to ruin the logistics set in place after many years of the EP using it? That is a major worry for EPs. TV and AV, Spectators, Concessions, Bathrooms, Judges, Lighting, ADA, etc all build up and changing the venue makes those changes ripple out.

First @ScottyB #RCJH...

My theory isn't that it is currently hurting all of us, it is more than eventually when you run into a capacity cap you have to weigh the short term costs of making that kind of move and all that is associated with making major logistical changes in order to ignite long term growth versus being permanently capped on capacity and not being able to grow any other way then increasing fees to increase profit.

This is a question which faces many, many corporations, and there is no easy answer...

 

[ScottyB]

First @ScottyB #RCJH...

My theory isn't that it is currently hurting all of us, it is more than eventually when you run into a capacity cap you have to weigh the short term costs of making that kind of move and all that is associated with making major logistical changes in order to ignite long term growth versus being permanently capped on capacity and not being able to grow any other way then increasing fees to increase profit.

This is a question which faces many, many corporations, and there is no easy answer...

Heyyyy! Rock Chalk!

Yea, scaling is tough. Then scaling out beyond the planned growth (cheer's case i think) is super problematic

 

[SL&AM]

I think you actually proved my point and not disproved it, yes I missed the Orange County Convention Center as #2, but the you proved Vegas it almost twice the size of Dallas and McCormick place is more than 2.5 times the size. So if you want to do back of the envelope math here, in Dallas you run 6 floors at the same time plus warm ups, awards etc, what is 2 to 2.5 times the space going to give you, I guess that could be 12 to 18 floors(I was being conservative in my floor estimates before).

Don't get me wrong these are great facilities in and I love visiting my friends from College, but my point was that these EPs are only capped by the contracts with the venues they are currently using that have historical location/significance to those companies or brands. Eventually they will be faced with the option of not being able to grow or changing locations. It is unfortunate and nobody wants to be competing/traveling to Chicago in January/Feburary or making another trip to Orlando, and I don't even want to think what the hotel and labor costs might be, but these larger venues are where the growth will be and Varsity will want to continue to grow these very profitable events..

You aren't taking into consideration that All-Star Cheerleading is far more popular by sheer number on the East Coast than the West.

 

[quitthedrama]

Heyyyy! Rock Chalk!

Yea, scaling is tough. Then scaling out beyond the planned growth (cheer's case i think) is super problematic

It will be interesting to see what the growth is in 5 years - increase or decrease.

 

[catlady]

I think you actually proved my point and not disproved it, yes I missed the Orange County Convention Center as #2, but the you proved Vegas it almost twice the size of Dallas and McCormick place is more than 2.5 times the size. So if you want to do back of the envelope math here, in Dallas you run 6 floors at the same time plus warm ups, awards etc, what is 2 to 2.5 times the space going to give you, I guess that could be 12 to 18 floors(I was being conservative in my floor estimates before).

Don't get me wrong these are great facilities in and I love visiting my friends from College, but my point was that these EPs are only capped by the contracts with the venues they are currently using that have historical location/significance to those companies or brands. Eventually they will be faced with the option of not being able to grow or changing locations. It is unfortunate and nobody wants to be competing/traveling to Chicago in January/Feburary or making another trip to Orlando, and I don't even want to think what the hotel and labor costs might be, but these larger venues are where the growth will be and Varsity will want to continue to grow these very profitable events..

I'm failing to see how I proved your point when 2/3 or more, of the gyms are located east of the Mississippi. Why would EP's, or you, think they would have great success at a competition in Vegas when 2/3 of gyms are on the other side of the country? They would lose a large portion of their clients, so they wouldn't need the space. Dallas is probably the most ideal location in terms of fairness in travel, and I'm also taking into account the time difference fairness to athletes. However, while I love NCA in terms of being a great competition, it was our most expensive, and IMO, our athletes performance was not at their best level with the longer travel and 2 hour time difference. It's not just about space, it's about where the majority of your clients are and where the majority are willing to go.
Thank you @SL&AM sometimes I assume people realize this is heavily weighted in the southeast.