Level 3 Stunt?

[Deleted member 15]

So the thing that Cali did is really a stunt, not part of the pyramid?

Correct. It's not a pyramid until connected to something else.

This is for rules purposes, panel judges will probably look at it different. Also, in L5 it doesn't matter as much because it's legal either way.

 

[CGAcheer]

Will you post or send me that video ([email protected]).

If it's a stunt it's illegal under L3 Stunt K1.

In order to make it a pyramid the back person that braces the inversion cannot be considered part of the outside stunt and that would make it illegal under L3 pyramids E3.

I emailed you the video

 

[Deleted member 15]

I emailed you the video

Cali's skill was done before a pyramid was ever created. Yours was between pyramids.

 

[King]

Correct. It's not a pyramid until connected to something else.

This is for rules purposes, panel judges will probably look at it different. Also, in L5 it doesn't matter as much because it's legal either way.

Situationally I wasn't concerned with Cali. More just an overall understanding. It used to be connection was not necessary. This would make a lot of what people do less legal because they 'think' they are doing a pyramid when in reality its a stunt that is close to another stunt because there is lack of connection.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Situationally I wasn't concerned with Cali. More just an overall understanding. It used to be connection was not necessary. This would make a lot of what people do less legal because they 'think' they are doing a pyramid when in reality its a stunt that is close to another stunt because there is lack of connection.

I think we'd have different conversations about this from a rules v. scoring perspective. Scoring wise I can go without a connection if the visual is more than the sum of it's parts (I couldn't think of a better way to say it).

Rules wise, especially as we push for them to be more black and white, we need a clear indicator that a pyramid has begun and that indicator is a connection.

 

[CGAcheer]

I don't think there are any rules like the particular one in question, the rest of the rules involve what you can do while braced by however many bracers vs what you can do unbraced. If the stunts were worded like the pyramid saying that the bases may extend during an inverted transition then there wouldn't need to be rules regarding what is a pyramid it would just be if you had the appropriate number of bracers.

As is, with @Andre interpretation, if there was a pyramid going up behind that transition or if the flyer touches someone not in her group first, then the exact same move is then legal.

Basically if they were both 3, sr elite is legal (even if extended) because it's in the middle of the pyramid and Cali is illegal because it started the pyramid

 

[Deleted member 15]

1. I don't think there are any rules like the particular one in question, the rest of the rules involve what you can do while braced by however many bracers vs what you can do unbraced.

2. If the stunts were worded like the pyramid saying that the bases may extend during an inverted transition then there wouldn't need to be rules regarding what is a pyramid it would just be if you had the appropriate number of bracers.

3. As is, with @Andre interpretation, if there was a pyramid going up behind that transition or if the flyer touches someone not in her group first, then the exact same move is then legal.

4. Basically if they were both 3, sr elite is legal (even if extended) because it's in the middle of the pyramid and Cali is illegal because it started the pyramid

1. To me this thread is all about determining if and when a stunt changes into a pyramid and is similar to the thread about the difference between standing and running tumbling (http://forum.fierceboard.com/threads/level-2-standing-running-tumbling-pass.18978/). We have to figure when one changes to the other. For stunts and pyramids I say the pyramid begins with the connection. The connection can temporarily break then reconnect and the skills done during the break are still part of the pyramid, but the pyramid doesn't start until there is a connection.

2. I think we're on the same page regarding this. There should be building rules, instead of stunt and pyramid rules, which allow some additional things with bracers. (I also think standing and running tumbling should be combined into tumbling, just like L5).

3. This happens in L1 often. A team does prep level libs while holding on to an extra person standing on the ground and it changes a stunt into a pyramid. Holding on to that extra person is the difference between legal and illegal.

4. You lost me on the Senior Elite reference, but I believe the concept is correct.

 

[CGAcheer]

1. To me this thread is all about determining if and when a stunt changes into a pyramid and is similar to the thread about the difference between standing and running tumbling (http://forum.fierceboard.com/threads/level-2-standing-running-tumbling-pass.18978/). We have to figure when one changes to the other. For stunts and pyramids I say the pyramid begins with the connection. The connection can temporarily break then reconnect and the skills done during the break are still part of the pyramid, but the pyramid doesn't start until there is a connection.

2. I think we're on the same page regarding this. There should be building rules, instead of stunt and pyramid rules, which allow some additional things with bracers. (I also think standing and running tumbling should be combined into tumbling, just like L5).

3. This happens in L1 often. A team does prep level libs while holding on to an extra person standing on the ground and it changes a stunt into a pyramid. Holding on to that extra person is the difference between legal and illegal.

4. You lost me on the Senior Elite reference, but I believe the concept is correct.

1. We had a problem deciding what "running" was last year for 3. We could do a running punch front and we could do a front handspring and running was defined as stepping forward and included the things after the step, but and front handspring punch front was illegal.

2. I agree on building, not sure on the tumbling though- a standing handspring tuck is significantly more difficult than a round off bhs tuck. I think if the pass starts backwards its standing, if you turn around some where in the pass and do a round off its then it becomes running for rules purposes

3. at least now it has to be someone not in their group.

4. Sr Elite from the CEA showcase does the same transition as Cali except it is in the middle of the pyramid rather than beginning it.

 

[Deleted member 15]

1. We had a problem deciding what "running" was last year for 3. We could do a running punch front and we could do a front handspring and running was defined as stepping forward and included the things after the step, but and front handspring punch front was illegal.

2. I agree on building, not sure on the tumbling though- a standing handspring tuck is significantly more difficult than a round off bhs tuck. I think if the pass starts backwards its standing, if you turn around some where in the pass and do a round off its then it becomes running for rules purposes

3. at least now it has to be someone not in their group.

4. Sr Elite from the CEA showcase does the same transition as Cali except it is in the middle of the pyramid rather than beginning it.

1. That's a different issue because the rules said " Flips may ONLY be performed in tuck position only from a round off or round off back handspring(s)."

2. I also think L1-5 should be combined into 3 levels. 1 - hand support if inverted. 2 - Hand support if twisting and inverted. 3 - Up to 1 flip and 2 twists.

3. The rule didn't change from last year, but is more clear.

4. I didn't watch anything from CEA's showcase so now I know why I was lost.

 

[CGAcheer]

1. That's a different issue because the rules said " Flips may ONLY be performed in tuck position only from a round off or round off back handspring(s)."

2. I also think L1-5 should be combined into 3 levels. 1 - hand support if inverted. 2 - Hand support if twisting and inverted. 3 - Up to 1 flip and 2 twists.

3. The rule didn't change from last year, but is more clear.

4. I didn't watch anything from CEA's showcase so now I know why I was lost.

1. there was the exception of "running" front tucks, a front handspring is "running" tumbling so it is not a crazy idea to say- we're allowed a running front tuck and a front handspring is running so why can't I do a running fhs front tuck. Then I found out otherwise. Then I said well, I guess we can just throw a front tuck out of a bhs. but now the rules specify back flips and clarify that you can't do fhs front tuck.
an interesting thought as to what is running as far as rules go- Standing bhs stepout front tuck at level 3? the step should make it running, right? and it separates the skills or maybe you would need the second step like you do to tumble out of a front tuck.

2. 2 confuses me- 1 i think is walkovers, handsprings, etc. 2. twisting handsprings? What about tucks, layouts etc? 3 is simple enough. are you trying to say 1 no flips, 2 flips no twists, 3 flips and up to 2 twists? or were you talking about building? that makes more sense. I like our current levels but I'm not against going to 4 levels- walkovers, handsprings, flips, twists

3. I agree

4. There's videos on here if you're interested

as to what a pyramid transition is- IMO if you are going into, in the middle of, or coming out of the pyramid and it involves someone outside of your stunt group its a pyramid transition. In the Cali example she is going from one outside group and flipping over into another group of bases and then connecting to a 3rd group. but if for example the middle group of a 7 group pyramid section that has two separate 3 group pyramids and a 7th stunt in the middle if they were to do the same flip but to the ground instead of to another group I would say that would be illegal because it is not involving another group despite being in the pyramid section.

 

[Deleted member 15]

1. there was the exception of "running" front tucks, a front handspring is "running" tumbling so it is not a crazy idea to say- we're allowed a running front tuck and a front handspring is running so why can't I do a running fhs front tuck. Then I found out otherwise. Then I said well, I guess we can just throw a front tuck out of a bhs. but now the rules specify back flips and clarify that you can't do fhs front tuck.
an interesting thought as to what is running as far as rules go- Standing bhs stepout front tuck at level 3? the step should make it running, right? and it separates the skills or maybe you would need the second step like you do to tumble out of a front tuck.

2. 2 confuses me- 1 i think is walkovers, handsprings, etc. 2. twisting handsprings? What about tucks, layouts etc? 3 is simple enough. are you trying to say 1 no flips, 2 flips no twists, 3 flips and up to 2 twists? or were you talking about building? that makes more sense. I like our current levels but I'm not against going to 4 levels- walkovers, handsprings, flips, twists

3. I agree

4. There's videos on here if you're interested

as to what a pyramid transition is- IMO if you are going into, in the middle of, or coming out of the pyramid and it involves someone outside of your stunt group its a pyramid transition. In the Cali example she is going from one outside group and flipping over into another group of bases and then connecting to a 3rd group. but if for example the middle group of a 7 group pyramid section that has two separate 3 group pyramids and a 7th stunt in the middle if they were to do the same flip but to the ground instead of to another group I would say that would be illegal because it is not involving another group despite being in the pyramid section.

1. I suggest taking the second step.

2. 1 - no flips, 2 - flips no twists, 3 - flips and up to 2 twists?

3. This one didn't go so well in the last conversation I brought it up.

4. Thanks. I was surprisingly few routines online. I judge a couple thousand routines a year and get a couple videos related to rules questions each week, so I limit the cheerleading I see outside of that. I'd also rather see a live performance.