All-Star New Basket Rules For College Cheer Are Making A Lot Of People Angry...

[ScottyB]

Most sports are non revenue. Universities add sports to comply with Title IX and EADA reporting. There are 3 prongs to Title IX to effectively reach compliance in keeping with The Office of Civil Rights and the Department of Education. Adding a sport or full time coaching staff is more than just a salary at hand. There have been many cases where athletic directors have simply said, you do not need certain stunting, tossing and flipping skills to lead cheers. NCAA does not insure the practice for competition or competition itself. Most ADs are beginning to realize this AACCA, the originator of this rule maintains and has for decades that
cheerleading is not a sport and in fact wrote to the government to stop it from being considered as a sport. Varsity lobbied in California 2 years ago to keep “competitive cheer” from being a sport. Jeff Webb maintained competitive cheer had to have a different name to preserve the ambassador nature of cheerleading and that sideline cheer also competed and needed protection. I’m not sure upping the cheer budget for safety and training is laughable as much as practical from a budget mindset of a Board of Trustees who understand that certain uninsurable skills are not needed to lead the crowd. When a University commits to a sport several budget necessities come into play: scholarships, salaries, trainers, strength coaches, academic support, laundry services, facility practice space, nutritionists, sports psychologist etc. And so tell me again, how AACCA as a rule maker and the owner of the position paper that Cheer is not a sport is adding to safety when all of these benefits add to a safer experience? Oh it must be the rule that doing these skills on grass and rubberized track keep it safe...yup that’s it.

I never said it needed to be a sport or involve the ncaa or scholarships. And everything else you said about varsity and aacca, most of us in this convo already know. I just want schools to support the programs as is and pay coaches so they can focus on their team's success, legitimizing cheer in what ever facet that is.

as practical from a budget mindset of a Board of Trustees who understand that certain uninsurable skills are not needed to lead the crowd.

while that is true on paper, in real life when the donors of those big name schools start seeing unathletic looking cheerleaders on the sideline, they are gonna speak up. thats not a comfortable place for an AD either (talking about student spirit leader body types that appear on national tv and countless events/appearances around campus is not fun for anyone)

 

[AndyT_T]

If we want safer baskets imo this is the solution.




Front baskets always land in a cradle position no matter how much of the twist you complete. Front fulls twist the same way that stunt dismounts twist, while back baskets twist like tumbling.
SOME flyers have twist tumbling experience. ALL flyers have twisting dismount experience.

Front twisting baskets require FAR less height because you don’t have to wait for their feet to come through. Front baskets are a three quarter flip, while back baskets are a tuck and a quarter. That’s a half rotation of difference you don’t have to worry about going forward.

AG teams struggle to give the flyer time to get her feet through, but front baskets remove that from the equation.

Instead of cutting baskets they’re needs to be a push in the industry to do front doubles and front kick fulls (both which mimic stunt skills and pyramid skills) instead of ball X fulls and back doubles.
Maybe reward front baskets more in all girl divisions? Make them score better so teams make the switch?

Edit: the best evidence of this is that even the worst of college teams do front flip dismounts to cradle, but only really strong teams ever do back tuck dismounts to cradle. It’s because front flips are so so much easier to perform. Put the back on ankles in the basket and no matter what she does it will at least make it around to a cradle.

 

[XtremeWpg]

If we want safer baskets imo this is the solution.

Front baskets always land in a cradle position no matter how much of the twist you complete. Front fulls twist the same way that stunt dismounts twist, while back baskets twist like tumbling.
SOME flyers have twist tumbling experience. ALL flyers have twisting dismount experience.

Front twisting baskets require FAR less height because you don’t have to wait for their feet to come through. Front baskets are a three quarter flip, while back baskets are a tuck and a quarter. That’s a half rotation of difference you don’t have to worry about going forward.

AG teams struggle to give the flyer time to get her feet through, but front baskets remove that from the equation.

Instead of cutting baskets they’re needs to be a push in the industry to do front doubles and front kick fulls (both which mimic stunt skills and pyramid skills) instead of ball X fulls and back doubles.
Maybe reward front baskets more in all girl divisions? Make them score better so teams make the switch?

Edit: the best evidence of this is that even the worst of college teams do front flip dismounts to cradle, but only really strong teams ever do back tuck dismounts to cradle. It’s because front flips are so so much easier to perform. Put the back on ankles in the basket and no matter what she does it will at least make it around to a cradle.

This. I much prefer front baskets. We competed front fulls one year and got great judges comments on them because they were different!

 

[AndyT_T]

This. I much prefer front baskets. We competed front fulls one year and got great judges comments on them because they were different!

Honestly I think the reason people don’t do them is because of camps! They were never even touched on at camp. Like if the basket portion of camp was broken up like this:

1: Front Flip, back tuck, back layout - Break to practice

2: Front full, Front double, back full, back double - Break to practice

3: Kick Front full, Arabian full, Ball X Full, Arabian 1 1/2 - break to practice

I think a lot more teams would do front baskets instead. There are flyers with gorgeous double downs who do scary back tuck baskets who could easily Front full/double. I just don’t think most coaches know they exist - or they think they won’t score well.
Hell basically any college freshman that flew level 5 pyramids for even one season basically has a Front full already and could probably do it first try if they had too.

 

[AndyT_T]

@Lower Level Queen did you mean to rate my comment as bullying?

 

[Lower Level Queen]

@Lower Level Queen did you mean to rate my comment as bullying?

no sorry whoops

 

[Kentucky Girl]

All of them

Basically the likes of Kentucky, Louisville, Alabama, UCF, Morehead State, etc.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

New rules released....

Specific list of allowed baskets provided.

No change in the requirements for tossing/catching personnel..

Front baskets specifically listed as prohibited.

Where’s my popcorn??

 

[Official OWECheer]

They acutally, no pun intended, doubled down.





And notice that they didn't post a link to Twitter... I didn't know that they'd been revised until King told me.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

They acutally, no pun intended, doubled down.





And notice that they didn't post a link to Twitter... I didn't know that they'd been revised until King told me.

I didn’t catch that. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I’m gonna need extra salt and imitation butter on that popcorn.

 

[AndyT_T]

I literally don’t understand. What’s the logic? Front flip dismounts are fine but front flip basket are scary dangerous? It’s nit like front baskets are new, bird fronts are standard baskets.

I can’t believe this.

What’s their reasoning? Do they have any?

 

[Official OWECheer]

I literally don’t understand. What’s the logic? Front flip dismounts are fine but front flip basket are scary dangerous? It’s nit like front baskets are new, bird fronts are standard baskets.

I can’t believe this.

What’s their reasoning? Do they have any?

My guess is that it'll lower insurance costs for programs, making them easier to field, which means more of them can exist, which means more (potentail) Varsity customers.

Your suggestion regarding front baskets is brilliant. We should head in that direction instead of outright banning them for everyone but groups with all male bases/backspots.

I didn’t catch that. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I’m gonna need extra salt and imitation butter on that popcorn.

Pass the hot sauce.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I literally don’t understand. What’s the logic? Front flip dismounts are fine but front flip basket are scary dangerous? It’s nit like front baskets are new, bird fronts are standard baskets.

I can’t believe this.

What’s their reasoning? Do they have any?

It could start with the fact that even one of the videos you posted as evidence was a front toss with a sketch catch. Skill lurched all forward, top still finishing her twist as she was being caught, bases catching as they were stepping away from the back, and the back having to take a step to catch up. The back barely put her hands on it to support the catch.

Using all-inclusives like stating that “front baskets ALWAYS land in a cradle” are rarely true statements. No matter what the skill is, there is a potential for it to go awry. Just like it might be possible for a handful of people on the planet to pull off a double twisting, double back on a concrete surface. Decisions like this have to be made based on the vast majority, those who exist within 1-2 standard deviations from the norm.

I still can’t figure out why everyone is so emotionally invested in these basket tosses. There’s a world of skills out there that can be performed legally, even if they remove baskets completely. Baskets aren’t even a big part of the score sheet anymore. I kind of enjoyed throwing baskets when I had to do it, but as a coach....my practice time can be used so much more productively without ever touching on them.

 

[AndyT_T]

It could start with the fact that even one of the videos you posted as evidence was a front toss with a sketch catch. Skill lurched all forward, top still finishing her twist as she was being caught, bases catching as they were stepping away from the back, and the back having to take a step to catch up. The back barely put her hands on it to support the catch.

Using all-inclusives like stating that “front baskets ALWAYS land in a cradle” are rarely true statements. No matter what the skill is, there is a potential for it to go awry. Just like it might be possible for a handful of people on the planet to pull off a double twisting, double back on a concrete surface. Decisions like this have to be made based on the vast majority, those who exist within 1-2 standard deviations from the norm.

I still can’t figure out why everyone is so emotionally invested in these basket tosses. There’s a world of skills out there that can be performed legally, even if they remove baskets completely. Baskets aren’t even a big part of the score sheet anymore. I kind of enjoyed throwing baskets when I had to do it, but as a coach....my practice time can be used so much more productively without ever touching on them.

That’s actually a video of me so a little context: it’s taken mid way through hell week when the front double got changed to a front kick full. It’s not a common basket so that was the easiest video for me to find. She didn’t finish the twist into our arms, she was still spinning because she hadn’t yet figured out when to open. It actually shows exactly why front baskets are safer, even though she was still spinning she landed in a cradle. If it had been a back basket she’d probably have landed straight up and down or upside down.

Here’s team USAs baskets. You’ll notice many of their baskets also have to move to stay under the flyer. Sometimes baskets travel, especially new baskets. It’s the nature of the game:



My point was that incomplete front baskets land in a flat back or in a cradle. Incomplete back baskets land upside down or straight up and down.

I don’t get how you’ll comment on a non-tumble division about the erosion of skills from our sport to make weaker teams successful and then in the same breath say baskets have to go. What’s the difference?

Edit: at college camps the first flipping skill you learn is a front flip dismount to cradle. I’m sure there are cases out there where they don’t go well but I saw teams who couldn’t do full downs do front flips. I’ve seen European teams who are sketchy as all hell but do front flip dismounts safely. I have literally never seen one not land in a flat back or cradle. Not even once.
I’m sure it has happened but I’ve never seen it.

Have you? Has anyone else?
How many back baskets have you seen not complete? I’m sure we’ve all seen hundreds.

I have seen and been under many back baskets that landed on their feet or upside down. Literally multiple times every single basket practice.

Front baskets are innately safer because they require .5 of a flip less. As long as you make it half way over you’ll at least land in a flat back the way roll overs catch. Back baskets are a flip and a quarter, front baskets are a 3/4 flip.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

That’s actually a video of me so a little context: it’s taken mid way through hell week when the front double got changed to a front kick full. It’s not a common basket so that was the easiest video for me to find. She didn’t finish the twist into our arms, she was still spinning because she hadn’t yet figured out when to open. It actually shows exactly why front baskets are safer, even though she was still spinning she landed in a cradle. If it had been a back basket she’d probably have landed straight up and down or upside down.

My point was that incomplete front baskets land in a flat back or in a cradle. Incomplete back baskets land upside down or straight up and down.

Oddly, you seem to forget that there are 4 other people involved in that toss. I say "oddly," because you are one of the other four. Granted because of the direction of her twist, you were the least likely to get struck. Your focus is on whether the top completes the flip and therefore lands on her back versus on her feet/head. There's also the impact that can be had because she's still twisting as she lands. That's the reason high school double downs were taken out. It had nothing to do with tops ending up head down or feet down. It was all about the number of concussions sustained to all of the members of the stunt group when the double turned into a 1 1/2 or a 1 3/4.

I don’t get how you’ll comment on a non-tumble division about the erosion of skills from our sport to make weaker teams successful and then in the same breath say baskets have to go. What’s the difference?

Baskets don't have to go, but it won't ever bother me if they do. What's the difference? It probably has something to do with I'm a lot older than you, have lived, have coached, and have done choreography through previous similar changes. I know how the industry responds in each scenario. Limiting a skill across the board, is completely different than having a division where you can compete without having to perform a skill that would otherwise be completely legal.

Going back to double twisting dismounts in high school, when that change occurred around 2012, there was an initial outrage. Then over the course of about two years teams started to work within the new rules and became much more creative with other aspects of their routines such as load-ins, transitions, and other types of dismounts. Routines overall became much cleaner, more creative, and basically more competitive. Those double-twisting dismounts had become the end-all/be-all of skills at nationals, and teams were spending so much time working on them, especially teams that didn't need to be working on them yet, that they were putting them on the floor when they were not performance ready. The change INSTANTLY cleaned up nationals, made it more enjoyable to watch with fewer "ugh" moments, and then it GRADUALLY led to a higher degree of competition among the teams in question.

When USASF added "International" to Worlds around 2005, they created a division where the competition was inherently lower. Some of the routines that came from outside of the United States were not just different, they were downright laughable skill-wise. I think it was 2006 when one of the Chinese teams started their performance with the whole team "nuggetting" on the mat with their flag pulled over top of them like a big sleepover. When the music started they all tried to forward roll out from under the flag. Of course half of their feet got caught in it and it made for comedy, at best. What was the first thing that happened? US teams who were getting mutilated by the big players in the regular divisions were throwing ringers on their new "International" teams and dropping into the International divisions so they could beat up on the foreign teams who just didn't "have it" yet. The next thing you know, USASF has to make a rule that only 3 teams from each country could advance to finals, effectively acknowledging that "we made this division for international teams and the US teams have taken advantage of the rules in an effort to get an easy win"

EDIT: Mark down my prediction now - there will be a team in the top 5 of every non-tumbling division at Worlds that has tumbling, but knew they couldn't beat someone like Top Gun Large Coed, so they just pretended they couldn't tumble and entered the non-tumbling division.

Edit: at college camps the first flipping skill you learn is a front flip dismount to cradle. I’m sure there are cases out there where they don’t go well but I saw teams who couldn’t do full downs do front flips. I’ve seen European teams who are sketchy as all hell but do front flip dismounts safely. I have literally never seen one not land in a flat back or cradle. Not even once.
I’m sure it has happened but I’ve never seen it.

Have you? Has anyone else?
How many back baskets have you seen not complete? I’m sure we’ve all seen hundreds.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Of course front flip dismounts to cradle are easy to learn. A 6 year old can learn how to stand on the edge of a pool and throw their rear end over their heads to land on their back in the water. Replace the little jump off their toes with a dip and a pop from their bases and it's an easy skill to learn. There's a world of difference between that and either type of basket, where the flyer needs to explode upward and get launched in order to complete the skill correctly. I won't really debate the 3/4 flip versus the 1 1/4 flip, most of us who have taught these things are aware of that fact. I'm sure there is a reason these were prohibited as well. My gut instinct is because a lot of people try to do them early on by lurching forward too early and having to be chased down by their catchers, but I haven't actually had this discussion with any of my insider friends. Suffice it to say the front flip dismount to cradle is not directly comparable to a front basket. Just like a back flip dismount to cradle is not directly comparable to backwards flipping toss. I'm suspecting that these were prohibited based on the fact that most of the teams I've seen do them require the tops to basically jump off as the pyramid is popping in a trampoline like effect that requires almost perfect timing.

The overall umbrella effect I see in these rule changes is to allow for greater margin for error without catastrophic results. If it's anything like high school cheer in the mid-80's to early 90's, you'll see some of the skills slowly put back into play after the powers that be have a stronger grip on whatever situations led to the changes.

Example: early 90's high school cheer, all free-standing release moves banned; early 2000's switch ups allowed; late 2000's low to highs put back in play; this year high-to-high tick tocks put back in play. Along the way there were baby steps that saw a period where males could base tick tocks but all-girl groups couldn't, various body positions were allowed/disallowed, and spinning versions were slowly added. Some of these skills will likely be back, unless people continue to act a fool about progressions and then they'll all be taken away.