Nontumbling Worlds Teams

Discussion in 'Allstar Cheerleading' started by Valvalmom, May 30, 2018.

  1. catlady

    catlady Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    If you mean the cheerleaders of the 80's were apples to oranges to the cheerleaders of today, and about 1% of them could do what cheerleaders do today, then I'll agree. The kids weren't any less capable, it was just the coaching resources to train them beyond the splits and a two leg stunt at waist prep weren't available. How many level 5 teams could throw full team running doubles 10 years ago? Standing fulls 5 years ago? NT5 has extra time at practice and in the routine to give stunting a whole new level of difficulty we have never seen before. It's not a matter of "if" NT5 will evolve, it's a matter of how "quickly" the coaching and talent will evolve. I can't wait to see what other countries bring to the table in this division.


    @njallday while I don't expect to change anyone's mind. NT5 doesn't have to go to a dangerous level to take stunting to a new difficulty or creative level. A L5 routine has limitations on what it can accomplish, because of the tumbling requirement. TGLC has typically been the creative innovator in the industry, however, this is where I feel other countries are going to enter and help take stunting to a new level, but it won't happen overnight.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  2. OldskoolKYcheercoach

    OldskoolKYcheercoach I think I can mix Cheer Music

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    No, I mean even in our strongest divisions, maybe 1% of cheerleaders have the athletic ability to pull off the stuff of Zucaroh, or Cirque, or any other primarily acro show. We’ve spent too many years teaching gray area techniques and allowing errors to slip through the cracks because “they make it work.”

    You can watch any cheerleading competition and see technique flaws all over the board. Kinesiology is an afterthought in cheerleading. The people who are teaching the skills here rarely understand WHY they work, they just sort of know HOW.

    A very small percentage of cheerleaders tumble to gymnastics standards, and an even smaller number stunt to acro standards.

    Zucaroh is phenomenal, they are so far out of our league we will never catch up.
     
  3. Natalia5

    Natalia5 I nugget in the back

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    It has already begun. FACT: True information because no bridges were burned with my CP's former dance studio and CP can and will pop in for barre work and intensives from time to time. Well, this dance studio has been actively consulting with cheer gyms, studying the rules and score sheets, and have been checking out cheer competitions looking into expanding their ACRO program to include a competitive NT team or program and they ARE NOT THE ONLY dance studio with ACRO programs looking into expanding their reach. With that in mind, NT could evolve into mini Cirque productions pretty quickly when you have dance studios with legit award winning ACRO programs building pyramids and contorting into elite stunts who knows where this will go. All I know is CP and I are there for it and looking forward to seeing some of the creative things this division will come up with.
     
  4. Ren

    Ren I'm an announcer on CBS for Worlds (or should be)

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    I’m quite excited about NT, and I’ll give it a few years to develop, but I’m excited for the possibility of seeing more acro-style stunts (irrelevant, but one thing I’ve never got is why cheer insists on the flyer having their foot parallel to the ground in partner/acro style stunts).

    I’m completely on the fence about NT5 being at worlds, but I don’t see how the argument that “worlds should only be for the top level” can fly when I don’t think many people think level 5 shouldn’t be at worlds. Sure, it’s different from level 6, and lots of teams that max out are at level 5, but I think that would all change quite quickly if worlds was truly for the top level (i.e. level 6). Idk, just my two cents!
     
  5. cheermomforever

    cheermomforever Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    I just think with new divisions and with R5 now a new 5 division next year ....it all about how many teams, how much more $$ can they get! Heading for disaster for venue space! Look at Summit last year!
     
  6. SL&AM

    SL&AM Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    Your area is not alone and that is all I'm gonna say about this.

    I'm withholding all judgement until World's. I was vocally against this decision and I remain steadfast in that belief. Disguising change as a form of equality to level the playing field is a load of BS and I'll bet my last dollar it'll be a US/Canada dominated division by the time the globes go home. Expanding this sport...good. How they're trying to do it? Short sighted.
     
  7. oldfaithful

    oldfaithful I'm new. Don't Hurt Me

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    I feel like it would eventually end up being level 5/6 tumblers/athletes moving to a NT division for a better chance of winning.
     
  8. Lisa Seye

    Lisa Seye I'm an announcer on CBS for Worlds (or should be)

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    I know folks complain about teams in regular worlds divisions who dont seem worlds ready but they are there anyway. Then there are other teams that are top of the pile. It's not any different for this division either. Some teams may not be ready but already have bids while others will be at the top of the pile just like other worlds divisions. Just my opinion (again lol)
     
  9. AndyT_T

    AndyT_T Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    I know of 1 dance gym and 1 acro gymnastics program that have both looked into fielding an NT team next year, and I am sure they will not be alone.

    I'm interested to see what happens if a program with a bunch of level 7-10 acrobatic gymnasts decides to field a NT cheer team (especially level 6 since that will be a division next year and acro gymnastics does a whole lot of level 6 baskets). I could see a lot of creativity coming in, assuming they partner with a really experienced cheer coach to teach them cheer skills.
     
  10. catlady

    catlady Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    This is what I'm hoping will happen in the next few years. Many people are looking at this solely from the current cheer population, I get it, but this could open the doors to not only some great athletes, but some great coaches, as well. While my Zurcaroh example was taken to a bazaar extreme, my exact quote was "This is a good example if you don't protect or evolve your business how someone can come in and provide, not necessarily a better version, but definitely a version that might attract some of your customers." Gymnastic enrollment boosts every time the Summer Olympics are on and perhaps only 1% will achieve that level, but it hasn't stopped gymnastics from evolving and attracting more customers with various skills. We'll see where NT goes, but I'm hopeful.
     
  11. dat.jpp

    dat.jpp Somewhere... some one.... is giving me a slow clap

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    I actually do like the idea of acro gymnastics fielding an NT-tumbling team. I just started "following" acro and I could see where it could go with Level 6.
     
  12. Eyes On The Prize

    Eyes On The Prize Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    I don't think the Zurcaroh example was taken to a bazaar extreme... @OldskoolKYcheercoach brought up a point that needs to be addressed if you expect acro level/acro inspired tricks in the NT division.

    The level of training in cheer for fundamentals is laughable compared to the level of training acro gymnasts, artistic gymnasts, cirque performers, etc go through. Their fundamentals are perfect freestanding handstands, straddle presses, hanging leg lifts, rope climbs with no legs, etc. Finding a level 5 cheer athlete with those skills, with no gymnastics training, is the exception. Our industry's standards for basic, fundamental skills is beyond inadequate for what you'd need to perform some of the intermediate skills acro gymnasts perform.

    And I'll say this. It's not really a coincidence that the NT teams I've watched, as a squad, don't have amazing jumps, don't have amazing baskets, don't have amazing body positions, don't have amazing stunts. If you don't have a solid mastery of basic body awareness, strength, flexibility, mobility - everything you need to have to perform level 5 tumbling - then it's going to carry over to every. other. area. of cheer. Especially in flyers and especially in jumps. So I don't think the argument of "if you can't do level 5 tumbling then you're not the best of the best" is that wrong when you're more than likely not going to be the best of the best at anything else. (Not including athletes who are on NT teams because of mental blocks.) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Changing NT into something thats more innovative means you need to change training those kids, which I think was what @OldskoolKYcheercoach was getting at. Double down on fundamentals if they're not tumbling. No matter what amazing gymnastics coach you bring in to coach NT cheer, you're not going to be able to do much if the kids don't have basic fundamentals. This has been a criticism for years and things have changed at a very slow pace. The teams that are routinely applauded for their creativity are the ones who continue to drill technique in the gym. The coaches who are creating innovative stunts are the ones focused on fundamentals.
     
  13. OldskoolKYcheercoach

    OldskoolKYcheercoach I think I can mix Cheer Music

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    #preach

    But I would go a step further and say that we should do this not just to become more innovative and do acro level skills, but to protect our athletes. Many of you repetitive use wrist/ankle/other joint problems are caused by this lack of body position awareness.
     
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  14. catlady

    catlady Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    Again, my post, verbatum..."Another thought. If anyone has watched America's Got Talent the past few years you have seen some dance groups come in with some incredible stunting. If you haven't, watch a few minutes of Zucaroh below. This is a good example if you don't protect or evolve your business how someone can come in and provide, not necessarily a better version, but definitely a version that might attract some of your customers. (ETA 3:20 and 5:41 are amazing)"

    My point was not about expecting acro level inspired tricks, you and @OldskoolKYcheercoach have made my comment into that somehow. My comment is about evolving and kids seeing Zucaroh and saying, "hey I want to do that." So "yes", I still think you took my comment to a bazaar extreme.
     
  15. UCFKnights07

    UCFKnights07 Slow your roll, Sparkle.

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    i dont think the non tumbling division will ever turn into acro. For one people who grow up doing acro, start at a super young age for the most part, they dont get those skills in a few years. Even if you created a level 6 division for non tumbling i still dont think you are ever going to see that kind of level of talent. maybe a team here and there are formed every few years to "infiltrate" the cheer world, but i dont see it going full acro ever.
    i think a level 6 non tumbling division would purely be a money making move on usasf or whoever part to bring in overseas talent and entry/admission fees....