All-Star Replacing Athletes With New Athletes...

[catlady]

There could be contributing factors such as you mention but if one person gives a slight competitive edge on a team (I'm assuming we are talking about a worlds team) what is more important for winning, skills or attitude?
Protecting the anonymous since this post

Rest assured, if this is a child that works hard, is well liked and her skills were only slightly behind this other athlete, kids and parents will be upset. I've seen the flip side, however, where an attitude and drama creator can take down an entire team. I've seen incredibly hard working kids with wonderful attitudes not be able to make corrections. I've seen a parent whose financial status changed create a situation where their "child couldn't take the pressure anymore" and "had to quit".

Many of us witnessed a gym recruit what they felt were the best of the best and it didn't work out the way they had hoped. Most of us have witnessed a Suzie who can divide a team down the middle. If the gym is dumping athletes for every slightly better athlete that walks by, they won't be in business long. I just find it strange this athlete is only slightly better, and the other athlete is a hard worker whose skills have increased since tryouts, she sounds like every coaches dream athlete....which brings me back to, there must be something more to this story.


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[cupieqt]

At the expense of maxing the score sheet?


Protecting the anonymous since this post

Our mission statement usually trumps the scoresheet. Winning is fun but not at all costs.

 

[tumbleyoda]

At the expense of maxing the score sheet?


Protecting the anonymous since this post

For us, yes. The scoresheet is not going to keep paying customers in my gym. And for us winning does not either. But customer service, how we treat them, how they feel about that treatment and knowing they have a chance to grow, get better, and even make mistakes will.

 

[Valvalmom]

I do not think this is okay. People are quick to criticize athletes who are "gym hoppers" but why would athletes not look out for their best interest when gyms have no problem replacing them? It is one thing if the athlete has an attitude problem, attendance issues or has been slacking off with skills, but to remove an athlete for no reason is not right. I think what is sad too is that sometimes gyms take advantage of athletes who are loyal and they know will stick with a lower leveled team after being demoted. I have heard of a big gym doing something like this so a very talented athlete and I don't think it is right.

Couldn't agree more. As a parent of a child who has suffered from blocks on and off for the past 3 years, my first thought was the potential irreversible damage to a child who is struggling with tumbling but maintaining a good attitude and strong work ethic.

 

[Cheer Dad]

@BlueCat. Any thoughts or perspective from the CA point of view.




Protecting the anonymous since this post

 

[12stepCheermom]

I'm just on a @tumbleyoda shimmy fest. Carry on.

 

[Cheer Dad]

I'm just on a @tumbleyoda shimmy fest. Carry on.

Glad I tagged.


Protecting the anonymous since this post

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

I just read a post in another thread in which a parent commented that her child was replaced the day of Day 2 of a major comp with no warning due to a mental block.

Kid only knew she was being replaced when she saw another kid warming up in her spot.

Parent only knew when she got a TEXT from a team parent as kids were in warm ups.

I tried to find a place to discuss this practice without starting a new thread.

I am in the school cheer world moreso these days but I am wondering how other gyms handle needing to replace kids.

I find the above practices to be concerning.

Does your gym text parents this type of thing? How do you handle this type of conversation?

I'm a big fan of meeting with kids and parents in adavance (school cheer.)

 

[tumbleyoda]

I just read a post in another thread in which a parent commented that her child was replaced the day of Day 2 of a major comp with no warning due to a mental block.

Kid only knew she was being replaced when she saw another kid warming up in her spot.

Parent only knew when she got a TEXT from a team parent as kids were in warm ups.

I tried to find a place to discuss this practice without starting a new thread.

I am in the school cheer world moreso these days but I am wondering how other gyms handle needing to replace kids.

I find the above practices to be concerning.

Does your gym text parents this type of thing? How do you handle this type of conversation?

I'm a big fan of meeting with kids and parents in adavance (school cheer.)

Totally depends on scenario. We would never do it by text whatsoever. However we have had situations happen where replacing a kid the day of competition happen. We have unfortunately had kids and parents in accidents on the way to competition and had to replace. We have had kids break serious team rules (beyond swimming before competition) and they were replaced. We have had kids late to warm ups so we have replaced them until they showed up. Then had kids who didn't show up till compete time and their replacement competed in their place.

In those cases a call was made to the parents by the owners but not necessarily the coach of the team. The focus of the coach was on the kids competing at that moment and getting them thru safely and successfully through that moment.

 

[Pebbles49]

Totally depends on scenario. We would never do it by text whatsoever. However we have had situations happen where replacing a kid the day of competition happen. We have unfortunately had kids and parents in accidents on the way to competition and had to replace. We have had kids break serious team rules (beyond swimming before competition) and they were replaced. We have had kids late to warm ups so we have replaced them until they showed up. Then had kids who didn't show up till compete time and their replacement competed in their place.

In those cases a call was made to the parents by the owners but not necessarily the coach of the team. The focus of the coach was on the kids competing at that moment and getting them thru safely and successfully through that moment.

I must admit, this almost happened to my daughter when she 1st started... The particular gym we were going to, always had the athletes come 4 or 5 hours before actual competition times and due to road construction/detours, I could not find where the team was competing and I did not call... We showed up, 2 hours late and someone was being taught my daughter's parts... Luckily, the coach reconsidered and she was able to perform, but I was told to purchase a GPS, so this incident wouldn't happen again...
Tbh,
I would have understand if my daughter was not allowed to perform for punishment...
However, if the gym knew ahead of time that an athlete was being replaced for a performance, I think a phone call by the coach to the parent, should have happened to minimize the embarrassment.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

As far as I understood it, it wasn't a "you were late" or "you broke a team rule" situation.

I will tag the parent in question. @justpeachy

 

[tumbleyoda]

I must admit, this almost happened to my daughter when she 1st started... The particular gym we were going to, always had the athletes come 4 or 5 hours before actual competition times and due to road construction/detours, I could not find where the team was competing and I did not call... We showed up, 2 hours late and someone was being taught my daughter's parts... Luckily, the coach reconsidered and she was able to perform, but I was told to purchase a GPS, so this incident wouldn't happen again...
Tbh,
I would have understand if my daughter was not allowed to perform for punishment...
However, if the gym knew ahead of time that an athlete was being replaced for a performance, I think a phone call by the coach to the parent, should have happened to minimize the embarrassment.

In that exact same scenario, the owners or directors would of immediately messaged the entire program attending about construction and made sure they connected to everyone to be apprised of their location and eta.

If known ahead of time, the parent should of been contacted as soon as the decision was made.

 

[AScheer]

I just read a post in another thread in which a parent commented that her child was replaced the day of Day 2 of a major comp with no warning due to a mental block.

Kid only knew she was being replaced when she saw another kid warming up in her spot.

Parent only knew when she got a TEXT from a team parent as kids were in warm ups.

I tried to find a place to discuss this practice without starting a new thread.

I am in the school cheer world moreso these days but I am wondering how other gyms handle needing to replace kids.

I find the above practices to be concerning.

Does your gym text parents this type of thing? How do you handle this type of conversation?

I'm a big fan of meeting with kids and parents in adavance (school cheer.)

I really hope there is more to the story. If not, this is exactly how to NOT handle the situation appropriately. I just can't help but think there has to be more, and that no gym owner would handle it like this!

 

[justpeachy]

@Cheer Dad Please forgive me if my story hijacks, but I feel a strong need to share it and this feels like the place.

My daughter is 13 (cheer 12). She was on a jr coed 5 team with a large, competitive gym that she had cheered at for 5 years prior. About a year ago, her team (or some combination of her teams, I can't remember) had an 8 hour Summit boot camp. Towards the end of this boot camp, she became physically exhausted and could no longer flip her body over. I saw the panic spread over her face... this was the beginning of a mental tumbling block.

Her coach handled it by screaming in her face and berating her- during practices, during Worlds/ Summit sendoff in front of a packed gym, and during practices and warmups at Summit. It was horrible and I should have put a stop to it then. My daughter performed at Summit, with easier level 5 passes and basing. After Summit, we made a gym change for the new season. My daughter and I both naively believed that the new, more positive environment would be a quick fix for the block. We were wrong. Though she loved the new gym, she missed the intensity (read abusive relationship) that she had gotten accustomed to at her old program. I was assured that my daughter would be coached less harshly, and we returned a short time later.

Things were going well and after a while my daughter was asked to help out on another team. This was a Worlds team and she was thrilled to be a part of it. One practice, during choreography, another girl showed up to learn the same parts that my daughter had been doing. By this time, my daughter was on 4 teams: jr coed 5, sr coed rest 5, med sr 5, and jr rest 5. Because of the 4 team conflict rules that are in place at competitions, my daughter would need a fill in at times. Unfortunately, nobody told her what was going on, so she thought she was being replaced. This was a common occurrence in this program, so she had no reason to think otherwise. I explained to her many times that she wasn't being replaced, but teenage girl brain would not hear it. Que self doubt and return of the tumbling block. This was January. Though the block began a few weeks before a larger competition, nothing happened other than some yelling and empty threats. She was actually called stubborn and lazy. Again, I should have put a stop to things right here. The competition happened to be in the same city as one of the gym's locations, so there was a Friday night practice before the competition. When my daughter didn't flip over as expected, she was told by her coach, "well you should be fine now since you are no longer on (the World's) team". And with that, she continued to practice with the j5. Since there was no real conversation or communication, she wasn't sure if this was another empty threat or if she had been removed from the Worlds team she was supposed to compete with the next day. I texted the team mom for clarification and learned that my daughter wouldn't be competing with that team any longer. She went on to compete with her remaining teams.

After this competition, the gym began to get serious about upcoming national level competitions (Cheersport, NCA, UCA, etc). My daughter continued to tumble inconsistently. She was often able to complete passes that began with a forward tumbling skill, but could not flip herself over backwards. We began hypnosis, psychotherapy, private lessons with a low pressure coach, and consulted a tumbling block expert who would also work with her by Skype. There is no instant cure for mental blocks, however I feel like we did everything possible. My daughter is a very hard worker and has a strong work ethic, by all accounts. She is humble (perhaps to a fault) and wanted her coaches approval more than anything. Just to be clear, I am not a psycho pushy cheer mom. My kid is a perfectionist and my role is normally to remind her that she is young and needs to CTFD. The more she wanted to tumble, the less likely it became. I will give the coach the credit of saying that she did handle the block less harshly this time. There was considerably less yelling and humiliation and we appreciated that. Still, the pressure and harm of the original block loomed and my daughter knew that eventually the patience would run out. In February, it did. Another girl in the gym was brought in to tumble beside her and threaten her. The girls would trade back and forth and some practices my daughter would not go in at all. Many times she was sent out of practice into another gym to do nothing. Later, a new girl was brought in from a different location to threaten my daughter. Anytime new kids came in the gym, us parents referred to them as "scare girls". That was their job. To scare kids into performing. It's counterproductive, in my opinion. A kid who is already frozen with fear is not going to unfreeze by adding more fear. Seems like common sense, but what do I know.

I knew what was coming and eventually I got the phone call. My daughter would not be on the floor at NCA. She was still part of the team and would still compete at Cheersport and UCA. I won't sugar coat it- I was upset. I knew what this competition meant to my daughter. She had worked 8 years with an NCA jacket as her #1 goal. I cried for her failure and the toll I knew that this would take on her spirit. I vented to my friends and to the team mom who was also my friend. I gathered myself and spoke to my daughter positively. This meant that the pressure to overcome the block was gone. The pressure to perform or cost the team those coveted jackets was gone. She could work her way back at her own pace. She could still travel with the team and would still receive a jacket if they won. I felt like that was fair, she had worked hard all year and contributed as a strong base and helped her team win two Summit bids. I said over and over that she would never want to be the kid who cost her teammates their jackets. We accepted the decision and kept pushing forward.

Then came Cheersport. Day 1 came and it was a mess. For the part that my child had a hand in, she balked her passes and her stunt came down. During the video review after the routine, my daughter's coach looked at her and said "just leave". She came out crying and told me. Soon after, the coach walked out and was speaking with another parent. When they were finished talking, I sent my daughter to the bathroom and got the attention of the coach. I asked her if she really wanted my daughter to "just leave". Her response was that if it would make me happy to leave then go for it. I told her this wasn't about me, but she had to be accountable to her words to my child. She asked me why the stunt fell. I said I am a parent, I have no idea why the stunt fell. It could have been my daughter's fault. It could have been that she had just competed other 2 teams consecutively and that her arms were spaghetti at this point. It could be that she is out of shape from sitting out of practices. It could be that the flyer just got over the flu and still wasn't feeling well. It could be that the flyer was adjusting to flying on two very different bases... hell I am a mom and all I know is the thing came down. Why are you, the coach, asking ME? The subject is then changed to the tumbling. Why didn't she tumble? Well, she has had a tumbling block for a month now, this is not new information. Coach tells me that she believed the kid would "get out there and just throw it". Well, I might be just a cheer mom but this is a no brainer. If a kid can't mentally flip her body over in practice, it's probably not going to happen at one of the most important competitions in front of hundreds of people either. The conversation became circular and incoherent and coach wandered off. We went back to our hotel. I'll just interject here that the team in question was in first place by over 4 points at this time. I'll also add here that in 8 years of cheerleading, I have never confronted a coach about an issue and especially not at a competition. I'm well aware that you just don't to that. This situation, in my opinion, warranted breaking the code.

The next day, I dropped my kid off for warmups with her first team. She would warmup and compete 3 level 5 teams within an hour and a half, just like the day before. Compete, run to the next warmup (through that godawful BC connector while changing bow and uniform top), compete, run the connector, warmup, compete again... it's exhausting just to type. Her first two teams went decent. Her tumbling had been slowly improving on those teams where she didn't feel the same pressure (different coaches). She arrived a few minutes late to her last team with the other crossovers. Gets her uniform changed and goes to start warming up and the NCA replacement girl is in her stunt. She thinks that this is because she arrived late to warmups and takes a minute to breathe. When it is time for the team to go onto the floor, she sees this kid walk up the steps and realizes that she has been replaced. Nobody told her. Nobody said one single word to this 13 year old kid to let her know that she had been replaced. At the moment that the team took the floor, I received a text from the team mom telling me that my daughter would not be on the floor. My response was to send my daughter out immediately and I walked over to the side of the stage where kids exit after performing. The routine started. My daughter's stunt group, which she was not in, fell. My daughter still had not come out. I was beginning to text again when the arena went silent and I heard panicked gasps from the moms around me. I looked up and an athlete was lying on the floor, clearly unconscious. I asked the moms around me what happened. I was told that the flyer was thrown, in a pyramid flip, feet first into the bases face and knocked her out. This was my daughter's group in the pyramid and it was her replacement who was unable to throw the flyer properly (in the kid's defense, she was clearly way too small to base this particular flyer and she had been learning a different part in the pyramid so she was totally winging it). The floor was cleared and the kids came out. I grabbed up my kid and we left Atlanta because mama bear was about to erupt. I texted the coach and let her know that we were done. The team competed again a few minutes later and apparently hit, bringing home those Cheersport jackets. Because that is what TRULY matters.

I have LOTS more to say, but this post is too long already.

 

[california cheer mom]

@Cheer Dad Please forgive me if my story hijacks, but I feel a strong need to share it and this feels like the place.

My daughter is 13 (cheer 12). She was on a jr coed 5 team with a large, competitive gym that she had cheered at for 5 years prior. About a year ago, her team (or some combination of her teams, I can't remember) had an 8 hour Summit boot camp. Towards the end of this boot camp, she became physically exhausted and could no longer flip her body over. I saw the panic spread over her face... this was the beginning of a mental tumbling block.

Her coach handled it by screaming in her face and berating her- during practices, during Worlds/ Summit sendoff in front of a packed gym, and during practices and warmups at Summit. It was horrible and I should have put a stop to it then. My daughter performed at Summit, with easier level 5 passes and basing. After Summit, we made a gym change for the new season. My daughter and I both naively believed that the new, more positive environment would be a quick fix for the block. We were wrong. Though she loved the new gym, she missed the intensity (read abusive relationship) that she had gotten accustomed to at her old program. I was assured that my daughter would be coached less harshly, and we returned a short time later.

Things were going well and after a while my daughter was asked to help out on another team. This was a Worlds team and she was thrilled to be a part of it. One practice, during choreography, another girl showed up to learn the same parts that my daughter had been doing. By this time, my daughter was on 4 teams: jr coed 5, sr coed rest 5, med sr 5, and jr rest 5. Because of the 4 team conflict rules that are in place at competitions, my daughter would need a fill in at times. Unfortunately, nobody told her what was going on, so she thought she was being replaced. This was a common occurrence in this program, so she had no reason to think otherwise. I explained to her many times that she wasn't being replaced, but teenage girl brain would not hear it. Que self doubt and return of the tumbling block. This was January. Though the block began a few weeks before a larger competition, nothing happened other than some yelling and empty threats. She was actually called stubborn and lazy. Again, I should have put a stop to things right here. The competition happened to be in the same city as one of the gym's locations, so there was a Friday night practice before the competition. When my daughter didn't flip over as expected, she was told by her coach, "well you should be fine now since you are no longer on (the World's) team". And with that, she continued to practice with the j5. Since there was no real conversation or communication, she wasn't sure if this was another empty threat or if she had been removed from the Worlds team she was supposed to compete with the next day. I texted the team mom for clarification and learned that my daughter wouldn't be competing with that team any longer. She went on to compete with her remaining teams.

After this competition, the gym began to get serious about upcoming national level competitions (Cheersport, NCA, UCA, etc). My daughter continued to tumble inconsistently. She was often able to complete passes that began with a forward tumbling skill, but could not flip herself over backwards. We began hypnosis, psychotherapy, private lessons with a low pressure coach, and consulted a tumbling block expert who would also work with her by Skype. There is no instant cure for mental blocks, however I feel like we did everything possible. My daughter is a very hard worker and has a strong work ethic, by all accounts. She is humble (perhaps to a fault) and wanted her coaches approval more than anything. Just to be clear, I am not a psycho pushy cheer mom. My kid is a perfectionist and my role is normally to remind her that she is young and needs to CTFD. The more she wanted to tumble, the less likely it became. I will give the coach the credit of saying that she did handle the block less harshly this time. There was considerably less yelling and humiliation and we appreciated that. Still, the pressure and harm of the original block loomed and my daughter knew that eventually the patience would run out. In February, it did. Another girl in the gym was brought in to tumble beside her and threaten her. The girls would trade back and forth and some practices my daughter would not go in at all. Many times she was sent out of practice into another gym to do nothing. Later, a new girl was brought in from a different location to threaten my daughter. Anytime new kids came in the gym, us parents referred to them as "scare girls". That was their job. To scare kids into performing. It's counterproductive, in my opinion. A kid who is already frozen with fear is not going to unfreeze by adding more fear. Seems like common sense, but what do I know.

I knew what was coming and eventually I got the phone call. My daughter would not be on the floor at NCA. She was still part of the team and would still compete at Cheersport and UCA. I won't sugar coat it- I was upset. I knew what this competition meant to my daughter. She had worked 8 years with an NCA jacket as her #1 goal. I cried for her failure and the toll I knew that this would take on her spirit. I vented to my friends and to the team mom who was also my friend. I gathered myself and spoke to my daughter positively. This meant that the pressure to overcome the block was gone. The pressure to perform or cost the team those coveted jackets was gone. She could work her way back at her own pace. She could still travel with the team and would still receive a jacket if they won. I felt like that was fair, she had worked hard all year and contributed as a strong base and helped her team win two Summit bids. I said over and over that she would never want to be the kid who cost her teammates their jackets. We accepted the decision and kept pushing forward.

Then came Cheersport. Day 1 came and it was a mess. For the part that my child had a hand in, she balked her passes and her stunt came down. During the video review after the routine, my daughter's coach looked at her and said "just leave". She came out crying and told me. Soon after, the coach walked out and was speaking with another parent. When they were finished talking, I sent my daughter to the bathroom and got the attention of the coach. I asked her if she really wanted my daughter to "just leave". Her response was that if it would make me happy to leave then go for it. I told her this wasn't about me, but she had to be accountable to her words to my child. She asked me why the stunt fell. I said I am a parent, I have no idea why the stunt fell. It could have been my daughter's fault. It could have been that she had just competed other 2 teams consecutively and that her arms were spaghetti at this point. It could be that she is out of shape from sitting out of practices. It could be that the flyer just got over the flu and still wasn't feeling well. It could be that the flyer was adjusting to flying on two very different bases... hell I am a mom and all I know is the thing came down. Why are you, the coach, asking ME? The subject is then changed to the tumbling. Why didn't she tumble? Well, she has had a tumbling block for a month now, this is not new information. Coach tells me that she believed the kid would "get out there and just throw it". Well, I might be just a cheer mom but this is a no brainer. If a kid can't mentally flip her body over in practice, it's probably not going to happen at one of the most important competitions in front of hundreds of people either. The conversation became circular and incoherent and coach wandered off. We went back to our hotel. I'll just interject here that the team in question was in first place by over 4 points at this time. I'll also add here that in 8 years of cheerleading, I have never confronted a coach about an issue and especially not at a competition. I'm well aware that you just don't to that. This situation, in my opinion, warranted breaking the code.

The next day, I dropped my kid off for warmups with her first team. She would warmup and compete 3 level 5 teams within an hour and a half, just like the day before. Compete, run to the next warmup (through that godawful BC connector while changing bow and uniform top), compete, run the connector, warmup, compete again... it's exhausting just to type. Her first two teams went decent. Her tumbling had been slowly improving on those teams where she didn't feel the same pressure (different coaches). She arrived a few minutes late to her last team with the other crossovers. Gets her uniform changed and goes to start warming up and the NCA replacement girl is in her stunt. She thinks that this is because she arrived late to warmups and takes a minute to breathe. When it is time for the team to go onto the floor, she sees this kid walk up the steps and realizes that she has been replaced. Nobody told her. Nobody said one single word to this 13 year old kid to let her know that she had been replaced. At the moment that the team took the floor, I received a text from the team mom telling me that my daughter would not be on the floor. My response was to send my daughter out immediately and I walked over to the side of the stage where kids exit after performing. The routine started. My daughter's stunt group, which she was not in, fell. My daughter still had not come out. I was beginning to text again when the arena went silent and I heard panicked gasps from the moms around me. I looked up and an athlete was lying on the floor, clearly unconscious. I asked the moms around me what happened. I was told that the flyer was thrown, in a pyramid flip, feet first into the bases face and knocked her out. This was my daughter's group in the pyramid and it was her replacement who was unable to throw the flyer properly (in the kid's defense, she was clearly way too small to base this particular flyer and she had been learning a different part in the pyramid so she was totally winging it). The floor was cleared and the kids came out. I grabbed up my kid and we left Atlanta because mama bear was about to erupt. I texted the coach and let her know that we were done. The team competed again a few minutes later and apparently hit, bringing home those Cheersport jackets. Because that is what TRULY matters.

I have LOTS more to say, but this post is too long already.

This broke my heart to read. Your daughter was being used. I feel so terrible for her. I have a 13 year old, I know how delicate they are. Sending her hugs!