All-Star Rule/rubric Changes Hindering Athletes Progression

[123jump4!]

My CP made a level 2 half year team at the end of Nov even though she was still inconsistent in her BHS. I just watched the end of her practice and she looks like a "real" level 2 tumbler now!

I don't think she would have improved this much if she hadn't been on this team. Tumbling in team practice twice a week has been so much better for her learning than classes and the odd private. So I'm grateful she was put on the team and not taken out of anything.

Gyms should think of the development of lower level kids and not just winning at all costs.

 

[Zyylophone]

My CP made a level 2 half year team at the end of Nov even though she was still inconsistent in her BHS. I just watched the end of her practice and she looks like a "real" level 2 tumbler now!

I don't think she would have improved this much if she hadn't been on this team. Tumbling in team practice twice a week has been so much better for her learning than classes and the odd private. So I'm grateful she was put on the team and not taken out of anything.

Gyms should think of the development of lower level kids and not just winning at all costs.

I love that!!!! I think as coaches sometimes we have to put an idea of winning and hitting the score sheet for only a certain competition to the side, and focus on the progression of ALL athletes so that ALL competitions in the future will be more consistent! Sure we may take a hit on execution for leaving suzie's back frogspring in the routine for this competition, but with repetition and proper coaching and correction, Suzie will be throwing beautiful handsprings for the rest of her cheer career because she practiced it every single practice.

 

[SL&AM]

I think balance is key in this and balance is not something this sport does well. Tumbling didn't come naturally to my older daughter but she gained skills because I could afford a weekly tumbling class and a private when she asked. Her success in this sport was directly tied to my wallet and I knew that; I also had realistic expectations for her which she'd eventually crush when she'd decide to start running full time.

My younger on the other hand, loves cheer. Loves, loves, loves cheer. But we will always stay in rec for her and here is why---she can't tumble. I mean, maybe she could with thousands of lessons, but realistically (there are medical/balancing issues with this) and in our area, that would mean Level 1 for life. And don't get me wrong, I have no qualms with the level, but the same thing year in and year out (long term) with a revolving door of new kids (and their SM counterparts) is not my idea of fun and I don't see it as being a positive for her either. So we will stick with rec cheer because she can have fun doing harder stunts and choreography (as she ages) and doesn't have to tumble.

And going back to the thousands of lessons comments---as a family, it's important to invest your money wisely. When my older was cheering that investment made sense. She loved the sport, was decent at it and had the ability to progress the levels (specifically tumbling requirements) so the money we spent made sense. For my younger? With the money it would cost me to get her to a back walkover, I could probably pay for 4 years at Yale and 2 years at Harvard. It's just not something that is going to happen, and while she loves the sport and is anxious for it to start up again, does spending thousands (maybe even 5 figures a year) make sense knowing she won't progress under the current scoresheet system? The answer is no. At least, not for us.

That said, I don't necessarily think the score sheet should be changed because it puts the safety of the athletes at risk. It's a catch 22.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

I mentioned it in the other thread, but groups A & B will even out in college where doubles are not allowed. If CP has r5 tumbling and strong flying or basing skills they will have opportunities to do well in college cheer.

Yes. It's the great equalizer.

Although I think being able to afford stunting privates when you are transitioning to coed (i.e. if you were on an all girl team) is very helpful.

Ex: Hard to practice if you don't know any experienced coed stunters to work with often.

 

[Keep_Believing]

@oncecoolcoachnowmom

I never really thought about that before. My CP has been blessed to be on Worlds teams the last 3 seasons that utilize coeds in their routines. For that reason she practices coeds with teammates.

How hard is it to transfer skills from flying with a group to flying coeds? They are similar in that both involve staying tight, trusting your partner, good lines, flexibility, etc. With that said they are also different.

 

[MissCongeniality]

@oncecoolcoachnowmom

I never really thought about that before. My CP has been blessed to be on Worlds teams the last 3 seasons that utilize coeds in their routines. For that reason she practices coeds with teammates.

How hard is it to transfer skills from flying with a group to flying coeds? They are similar in that both involve staying tight, trusting your partner, good lines, flexibility, etc. With that said they are also different.

I think she is also talking about the girls who are bases for most of their senior years in allstar.... those beasty girls with awesome tumbling skills who get to college and find that they are suddenly limited in their choices as there are not quite as many all girl teams or they are (if small enough) needed to become flyers. Even girls who were amazing flyers in Allstar find themselves having to compete for those few available spots and an inch or two can make it or break it.

 

[Zyylophone]

@oncecoolcoachnowmom

I never really thought about that before. My CP has been blessed to be on Worlds teams the last 3 seasons that utilize coeds in their routines. For that reason she practices coeds with teammates.

How hard is it to transfer skills from flying with a group to flying coeds? They are similar in that both involve staying tight, trusting your partner, good lines, flexibility, etc. With that said they are also different.

I find personally (from playing around flying both all girl and coed lmao) The general concept of flying is still the same but the key importance and difference i should say is position of weight for flyers. Flying coed, weight is generally in the back region of the foot (around the heel but not "heeling") and shoulders slightly behind them. Flying with a flat foot is something quite hard to do on all girl but almost essential for coed stunting as the grip the base has is almost always starting on the heel. You'll see with some experienced coed flyers, they can still maintain complete body control while staying on the balls of their feet. The number one thing I see when a flyer is going from stunting allgirl to coed, they will have weight be a little too far forward and usually pop off the front. This may be because they are used to always having a base on the toe and able to push the toe up and control their position of weight. It takes some getting used to but it usually adjusts fairly quickly! It definitely helps all girl stunts if flyers have previous coed experience. Please correct me if im missing something as well!!

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

I find personally (from playing around flying both all girl and coed lmao) The general concept of flying is still the same but the key importance and difference i should say is position of weight for flyers. Flying coed, weight is generally in the back region of the foot (around the heel but not "heeling") and shoulders slightly behind them. Flying with a flat foot is something quite hard to do on all girl but almost essential for coed stunting as the grip the base has is almost always starting on the heel. You'll see with some experienced coed flyers, they can still maintain complete body control while staying on the balls of their feet. The number one thing I see when a flyer is going from stunting allgirl to coed, they will have weight be a little too far forward and usually pop off the front. This may be because they are used to always having a base on the toe and able to push the toe up and control their position of weight. It takes some getting used to but it usually adjusts fairly quickly! It definitely helps all girl stunts if flyers have previous coed experience. Please correct me if im missing something as well!!

That. Where you place your weight is very different.

I think she is also talking about the girls who are bases for most of their senior years in allstar.... those beasty girls with awesome tumbling skills who get to college and find that they are suddenly limited in their choices as there are not quite as many all girl teams or they are (if small enough) needed to become flyers. Even girls who were amazing flyers in Allstar find themselves having to compete for those few available spots and an inch or two can make it or break it.

That. If you were on All Girl 5 but are shooting to make a big deal D1A coed program, you are going to really have to work. Those who have access to coed stunt privates (or have coed guy friends in the gym to stunt with at open gym for free) make a smoother transition.

 

[Zyylophone]

Something I am seeing a lot of this year, which i am loving, is more advanced coed stunting also with female bases! This may be a benefit from the rubric change! It's been tough for coed teams to get in high range for coed quantity because of the level of difficulty and numbers required for the skills, but throughout the years, I have seen a lot of improvements nation-wide on coed stunting! Then we get the beast girls that say, "I can do that too" and bust out a toss hands press full around unassisted. Something I think the scoresheet/rubric has had a direct influence on.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Something I am seeing a lot of this year, which i am loving, is more advanced coed stunting also with female bases! This may be a benefit from the rubric change! It's been tough for coed teams to get in high range for coed quantity because of the level of difficulty and numbers required for the skills, but throughout the years, I have seen a lot of improvements nation-wide on coed stunting! Then we get the beast girls that say, "I can do that too" and bust out a toss hands press full around unassisted. Something I think the scoresheet/rubric has had a direct influence on.

Yesss. No boys no problem!

 

[SthrnCheerMom]

CP struggles with tumbling. So she is not in any running tumbling in her routine. Because practices at this point in the season are all routine based, and not skill building, she gets zero tumbling practice unless I drive to and pay for privates/open gyms on days other than scheduled practice days. With other kids in the family and other obligations, it isn't always easy to fit these in. We also live no where near the gym so that's a factor as well. Meanwhile, the kids already with their tumbling skills, get to practice it during every full out.

I am aware of how it works but surprisingly, in lower level cheer, many parents are completely unaware. I have heard numerous times 'they tumble during practice' But there is huge difference a kid throwing what they have and a kid needing a spot/instruction. Parents may see some other kids tumbling and assume that their less skilled kid is receiving instruction off to the side. Nope, that rarely is happening. Your kid without tumbling is standing there doing nothing, or is told to stretch. So the good get better, and the others......

This. Our experience at our previous gym was like this. They tumble all spring and summer but once the routine is put in place, that stops. So as many have mentioned, unless the parent can afford lots of privates or are able to come to open gyms, it's always the same thing, cram it all in in a short amount of time and hope they get it and then keep it. We switched gyms this year. Included in our tuition is 1 tumble class as well as the option of dropping in on 2 additional classes. There is the issue of not living close to the gym, so we can't get there necessarily for the extras but at least the tumble class is included and I don't have to try and come up with extra funds.

 

[XtremeWpg]

We have a dedicated tumbling night on Saturdays. It's broken into 3 sessions (level 1, level 2, level 3+). It's included in tuition but isn't mandatory. That's how we've kept the kids progressing in tumbling. We do a group session, all hands on deck with coaches. We have a small gym of 80 athletes and not all of them tumble and the bulk of them are level 1-2 athletes.

We rent space from a gymnastics facility, so space to do privates is extremely limited so we had to find a way to keep working on tumbling progressions without them.

 

[Slduck]

My CP has definitely been impacted by this. She was placed on a higher level team without having a standing tuck but has a nice layout. She has reached that "too small to base, to big to fly" stage (She's 4'11 and 103lbs). She has nice jumps but is hidden in the back because she doesn't have a standing tuck. She is "nuggeted" for the elite sequence and not included in group tumbling, . She wanted to level down to a lower team but the coach didn't want to. The team can afford to have several not really doing much because of the new scoring. Rather than being more motivated, she is just frustrated. It's hard feeling like you aren't beneficial for your team.

 

[catlady]

Perhaps I'm way off, but I think bids have been the main culprit in hindering progress the last few years. When we began AS seven years ago, generally if you were a beginner athlete to having a bwo you were level 1, a bhs you were level 2, a running tuck level 3, etc. I guess the thought process was you could get your running skills if you had the basic on level skill. Now with the Summit, it appears to be on level 1 the expectation is not only to have full level 1 skills, but to have mastered technique, have the strength and stamina to do full skills in Nov, have level 5 body positions, level 5 jumps, and level 5 performance skills. Anymore that means a kid could have to concentrate on level 1 skills for a couple of years just trying to get at Summit level 1 team competitive expectations. I watched a Sm. Sr. 2 Summit team (below) last year, they were awesome, their precision and stunting/tumbling technique were off the charts for that level along with their performance, but I couldn't help but wonder how many years a Sr. level athlete would have to work to be at that level. Mind you, they got 3rd place, but I'm assuming for a legality.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Yes.

The whole "making a Senior 3 for Summit bid purposes that = some Worlds team kids, some from your J5, and some from your 5R" puts a lot of kids in a position to not progress.

If you are at the gym above, and this is their only Level 3 option and you have a legit L3 material, where are they going to make said progress?

You may say Senior 4, but they may not be ready or have L4 tumbling.

On Senior 2? J2? That is not what everyone wants.