All-Star What Skills Arent Hard Enough For The Level They Legally Become Available In?

[luv2cheer92]

I guess I'm confused why standing tumbling isn't the same as running tumbling across all levels. If you can tuck on level 3 why not have tucks in both standing and running? My kid can't be the only kid who had to learn standing skills in line with running and didn't progress to the next thing until both the running and standing skill were perfected. Maybe that is where the real problem lies. Can you please tell me though, how you expect to bridge what will be an even bigger gap between level 5r and 5 when it comes to standing?

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It's more common for people to learn running before standing.
Standing to doubles are not the standard for level 5, fulls are. With really only 5 levels (yes there are some extra things you can do in level 6), there's going to be a gap somewhere and having the gap be fulls - doubles is probably the best place to put that gap. As progressing from one twist to two twists isn't rushed as much as other progressions. Nobody's going to just go from layout to thinking they can throw a double. Right now there are athletes being rushed through standing to tuck to get to a layout at level 4, resulting in lots of improper layouts which then leads to further issues as you progress. This helps eliminate that. Yes, good programs wouldn't do that, but these kind of rules are not made just for the good programs that practice "perfection before progression". It's also for the countless programs out there that don't.

 

[BlueCat]

There are also a TON more athletes making the jump from 2-3 (and 3-4) than progressing from 5R to 5.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

That would make for a pretty insane jump from 2 to 3. I fail to see how making a safer and more steady progression of levels is going backwards. Completely disagree with that.

Level 2 to 3 is already a challenging transition due to how stunting changes.

Can you imagine while also moving to fully extended stunts on one leg, we also start asking kids to have standing tucks/series tumbling to tuck?

3 would almost become the new 5.

*cues meltdowns*

 

[123jump4!]

Then multiple standing BHS should be allowed in level 2. If standing tumbling to tuck was allowed in level 3.

Agree that stunting seems a lot harder between 2-3.

 

[tumbleyoda]

It's more common for people to learn running before standing.
Standing to doubles are not the standard for level 5, fulls are. With really only 5 levels (yes there are some extra things you can do in level 6), there's going to be a gap somewhere and having the gap be fulls - doubles is probably the best place to put that gap. As progressing from one twist to two twists isn't rushed as much as other progressions. Nobody's going to just go from layout to thinking they can throw a double. Right now there are athletes being rushed through standing to tuck to get to a layout at level 4, resulting in lots of improper layouts which then leads to further issues as you progress. This helps eliminate that. Yes, good programs wouldn't do that, but these kind of rules are not made just for the good programs that practice "perfection before progression". It's also for the countless programs out there that don't.

I wish the corporate EP that told us several years ago we were "lucky" to even have a Worlds Bid as a Level 5 team because we threw no Standing BHS series to Doubles would of thought that way. We haven't fielded a Worlds team since. Love it whenever we see him and he asks when are we going back into Level 5 and bring our program back to his his event - our answer when we have full squad two to Doubles. Since that is HIS standard for Level 5 bid worthiness.

As to rushing the truth is until programs set up tumbling programs INDEPENDENT of the cheer rubric or scoresheets, athletes will ALWAYS be rushed to hit the scoresheet. Because as much as people like to holler perfection before progression when those kids and parents start leaving to go to other gyms because you wont allow them on a higher level teams with jank skills, too many coaches and owners make all sorts of compromises.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

I wish the corporate EP that told us several years ago we were "lucky" to even have a Worlds Bid as a Level 5 team because we threw no Standing BHS series to Doubles would of thought that way. We haven't fielded a Worlds team since. Love it whenever we see it him and he asks when are we going back into Level 5 and bring our program back to his his event - when we have full squad two to Doubles. Since that is HIS standard for Level 5 bid worthiness.

As to rushing the truth is until programs set up tumbling programs INDEPENDENT of the cheer rubric or scoresheets, athletes will ALWAYS be rushed to hit the scoresheet. Because as much as people like to holler perfection before progression when those kids and parents start leaving to go to other gyms because you wont allow them on a higher level teams with jank skills, too many coaches and owners make all sorts of compromises.

This.

Also, good for you for not having a Worlds team just to say you have one or to keep certain kids/parents.

I just saw some teams on the stream at UCA that would make KILLER Senior 4s because 90% of the tumbling they threw was 4 or maybe 5R. Makes me wonder why they don't just drop down but generally it is the draw of saying they have a Worlds team. Or creating a Worlds team to keep those few true Level 5 tumblers happy.

 

[tumbleyoda]

This.

Also, good for you for not having a Worlds team just to say you have one or to keep certain kids/parents.

I just saw some teams on the stream at UCA that would make KILLER Senior 4s because 90% of the tumbling they threw was 4 or maybe 5R. Makes me wonder why they don't just drop down but generally it is the draw of saying they have a Worlds team. Or creating a Worlds team to keep those few true Level 5 tumblers happy.

I will say that not having a Worlds team has lost us kids/parents. We don't scholarship, even the boys. We don't offer free or reduced tuition for Level 5 athletes. We don't have team athletes teaching classes or cleaning the gym to work off tuition. We don't incessantly brag on social media (which is very big with so many young people seeing to be highly visible) about our teams/programs to gain new people. Matter of fact our profile is rather low. We don't recruit kids from other programs to join our program or use the kids and parents to do the recruiting for us. Then add to that being in state where school cheer is highly popular and kids start from the earliest ages to prepare to make their High School Cheer Teams, kids and parents mad they didn't make a certain level team or make team as a flyer and we have loss for sure. Especially in that division.

But we have also retained parents by not sending them all over the country chasing bids. By putting kids on appropriate level teams, realizing that just because they have one upper level skill that does not make them fully competitive at that upper level. Our R5 team has done pretty well for themselves over the years. As has most of our teams.

And we honestly could lose our entire cheer program and still have a profitable, viable business. We could increase salaries and pay across the board. because we figured a long time ago to stop putting all our eggs in the cheer basket and do what it takes to have a good healthy, financially sound business first. Competing, bids, Summit, etc everything else comes after that. it is all about your priorities.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

I will say that not having a Worlds team has lost us kids/parents. We don't scholarship, even the boys. We don't offer free or reduced tuition for Level 5 athletes. We don't have team athletes teaching classes or cleaning the gym to work off tuition. We don't incessantly brag on social media (which is very big with so many young people seeing to be highly visible) about our teams/programs to gain new people. Matter of fact our profile is rather low. We don't recruit kids from other programs to join our program or use the kids and parents to do the recruiting for us. Then add to that being in state where school cheer is highly popular and kids start from the earliest ages to prepare to make their High School Cheer Teams, kids and parents mad they didn't make a certain level team or make team as a flyer and we have loss for sure. Especially in that division.

But we have also retained parents by not sending them all over the country chasing bids. By putting kids on appropriate level teams, realizing that just because they have one upper level skill that does not make them fully competitive at that upper level. Our R5 team has done pretty well for themselves over the years. As has most of our teams.

And we honestly could lose our entire cheer program and still have a profitable, viable business. We could increase salaries and pay across the board. because we figured a long time ago to stop putting all our eggs in the cheer basket and do what it takes to have a good healthy, financially sound business first. Competing, bids, Summit, etc everything else comes after that. it is all about your priorities.

You are in IL, right? I wondered how that plays into it. As a school coach in another state I find it interesting that most kids in IL, when faced with a choice will choose school.

And YES. One upper level skill does not make an upper level kid.

I see this in a school sense, because we don't determine JV and Varsity by grade. My team requires a certain level of tumbling, whereas with JV tumbling is optional (they have some BHS but every year there are a small group who come into JV with no tumbling."That sometimes leads folks to GO INTO HYPERDRIVE AROUND FEBRUARY AT THEIR GYM to get their tuck for Varsity.

Because "well Varsity requires tucks so if I get my tuck I'm a lock for it."

Nope. A tuck by itself does not a Varsity cheerleader make.

Same with a double ALONE not making you a Worlds caliber athlete. At some gyms. you're actually a pretty hard sell for a Worlds team if all you have is ONE Level 5 pass. Ex: At a larger gym with multiple titles and successful Worlds teams, your double by itself = Welcome to 5R or even 4.

 

[FierceIsTheName]

Punch front forward rolls become legal in Level 4, but even in the varsity scoring system it saying that this pass isn't level appropriate, since punch front step outs are level appropriate

 

[california cheer mom]

Punch front forward rolls become legal in Level 4, but even in the varsity scoring system it saying that this pass isn't level appropriate, since punch front step outs are level appropriate

That isn't level 3? I feel like most of the punch fronts we see are followed by a forward roll, but now that I think about it I haven't really seen that this year. Definitely last year though!

 

[tumbleyoda]

Punch front to forward roll should NOT be a progression at all on floor at all. You are inadvertently encouraging kids to land on their heads by trying to connect those two skills. We do not spend the amount of time necessary in the cheer industry on body shaping and awareness to throw this skill combo out there. Ugh.

 

[FierceIsTheName]

That isn't level 3? I feel like most of the punch fronts we see are followed by a forward roll, but now that I think about it I haven't really seen that this year. Definitely last year though!

They used to be legal in level 3 but not this year! I always thought they looked silly, like thats what i did whenever I over rotated or landed funky.

 

[california cheer mom]

They used to be legal in level 3 but not this year! I always thought they looked silly, like thats what i did whenever I over rotated or landed funky.

Oh wow! This may be why we don't see full squad punch front forward rolls anymore! CP's coaches would never allow it but I saw a ton of them when she was on J3 last year!

 

[AndyT_T]

So why go backwards? Why not allow standing two to tuck to level 3, leave 4 and r5 alone and the gap is closed. Simple easy fix that isn't watering down the sport.

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I agree. Level 2 should be allowed to do standing and running series, level 3 should be allowed to end in tuck, and level 4 should be allowed to layout and standing tuck. Then make R5 standing series to layout with a whip or standing series to a full and then have regular level 5 be standing series to a full with a whip and or standing series to a double.

 

[LateKate3]

I agree. Level 2 should be allowed to do standing and running series, level 3 should be allowed to end in tuck, and level 4 should be allowed to layout and standing tuck. Then make R5 standing series to layout with a whip or standing series to a full and then have regular level 5 be standing series to a full with a whip and or standing series to a double.

If only the rest of the cheer world thought like we do. Just make standing and running both a priority and equal on each level. That just makes so much sense. I know standing is harder...but that doesn't mean they should "dumb things down" so it makes it easier on everyone. Ugh. These athletes will work for what they want, saying it is hard and making it easier...isn't real life, lol.

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