All-Star What Skills Arent Hard Enough For The Level They Legally Become Available In?

[FierceIsTheName]

If only the rest of the cheer world thought like we do. Just make standing and running both a priority and equal on each level. That just makes so much sense. I know standing is harder...but that doesn't mean they should "dumb things down" so it makes it easier on everyone. Ugh. These athletes will work for what they want, saying it is hard and making it easier...isn't real life, lol.

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I don't want to be negative or anything, but I've been on level two for a few years and level 3 for a few years. And although I could do standing handspring series in level 2, level appropriate athletes still struggle with it. My current level 2 team is made up of athletes who moved up from level 1 after last year, who have beautiful strong tumbling. But going from back walkovers to standing multiples is quite a jump, in my opinion.
I've also been on quite a few level 3 teams, I personally was on level 3 for 3 years, was in the gym 5 days a week and never got standing handsprings to tuck. But I was easily able to do running specialty passes to tuck, even throwing some ugly piked layouts sometimes. Although yes, it would be great to make standing and running passes the same, I don't ever see that happening. I don't think its making it easier for athletes, most the kids I know who could do handsprings to tuck already had a layout or full. Running tumbling is just easier to progress in, and safer too. I'd rather see easier standing tumbling passes that are safe than gyms throwing together a team with appropriate running tumbling and janky scary standing tumbling because they aren't ready.

 

[LateKate3]

I don't want to be negative or anything, but I've been on level two for a few years and level 3 for a few years. And although I could do standing handspring series in level 2, level appropriate athletes still struggle with it. My current level 2 team is made up of athletes who moved up from level 1 after last year, who have beautiful strong tumbling. But going from back walkovers to standing multiples is quite a jump, in my opinion.
I've also been on quite a few level 3 teams, I personally was on level 3 for 3 years, was in the gym 5 days a week and never got standing handsprings to tuck. But I was easily able to do running specialty passes to tuck, even throwing some ugly piked layouts sometimes. Although yes, it would be great to make standing and running passes the same, I don't ever see that happening. I don't think its making it easier for athletes, most the kids I know who could do handsprings to tuck already had a layout or full. Running tumbling is just easier to progress in, and safer too. I'd rather see easier standing tumbling passes that are safe than gyms throwing together a team with appropriate running tumbling and janky scary standing tumbling because they aren't ready.

Those same gyms will still throw together teams with janky standing tumbling...just the next level up. Lowering standards instead of changing coaching/gym practices can't be the answer. Hold the athletes to a higher standard and they will meet them. Not everyone is going to be a level 5 athlete, and that is ok...not everyone can sing well, play softball on an elite level or be artistic...but for the ones that can, let them.



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[FierceIsTheName]

Those same gyms will still throw together teams with janky standing tumbling...just the next level up. Lowering standards instead of changing coaching/gym practices can't be the answer. Hold the athletes to a higher standard and they will meet them. Not everyone is going to be a level 5 athlete, and that is ok...not everyone can sing well, play softball on an elite level or be artistic...but for the ones that can, let them.



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I get what you mean but I doubt these things will ever change. I only see things getting easier, I can't imagine varsity/usasf changing the rules to make levels harder.

 

[Fleximom]

You don't see a ton of aerials (I think they are L4.) Or it could be me personally just not seeing the right teams.

Sassycats has them in standing tumbling this season and I love them.

CPs level 3 team does full team aerials. I love them!

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

I agree. Level 2 should be allowed to do standing and running series, level 3 should be allowed to end in tuck, and level 4 should be allowed to layout and standing tuck. Then make R5 standing series to layout with a whip or standing series to a full and then have regular level 5 be standing series to a full with a whip and or standing series to a double.

Level 3 not ending in tuck has boggled my mind.

 

[FamousxMindset]

If we are saying L3 standing passes should end with a tuck just because they are allowed to do running tuck is silly. Then we should also allow r5 athletes to do standing fulls since than throw running fulls and standing doubles for L5 because they can throw running tucks. I can't truly imagine anyone who coaches L3 athletes would argue that they should be throwing standing to tucks.

@tumbleyoda your thoughts?

 

[tumbleyoda]

@FamousxMindset Professionally speaking I wouldn't want that to happen until there was an entire revamp of the tumbling grid based on safety and progressions by those who actually teach and coach it as their main job not their side hustle. If you did that we would find that the tumbling skills simply do not evenly match up with the levels we have currently assigned them to. Anytime that is suggested it is said it is too gymnastics like but they fail to recognize most gymnasts do not even do series BHS unless it is on Beam or in the Level 4 compulsory routine which will change this year.

Most gyms simply do not focus on standing tumbling with the focus of creating power to do harder skills. They also fail to recognize the brain has to get used to flipping over so many multiple times before throwing a tuck into the mix. For example in my tumbling class curriculum it is a requirement to be able to do at least 3 BHS connected from a stand and a run, plus HS snap down series BHS before ever executing tucks. This is in my Level 2 tumbling classes and Back Tuck Focus tumbling classes. By the time they get to Level 3 they should be able to start working those tucks safely. So my athletes coming out of Level 2 tumbling classes or Back Tuck Focus tumbling classes can do connected series because that is the way I wrote the curriculum. To prepare them for the next level BEFORE they get to the next level

Then we assume that coaches will not put athletes in levels they can not do which we all know from experience that is not the case for many, many,many different reasons. Until there is a check and balance on that as well that prevents coaches AND parents from doing this we will continue to see this be an issue. Right now it is on the coaches. If there was more trust in the industry as a whole, they could do something to make that happen.

As to R5 they have already made the decision to gut that division to force gyms to compete in Worlds divisions whether they want to or not or else face losing athletes to other gyms. But in no way should a standing full be allowed in R5. Whips should not be allowed in L4 either because it messes up the set of a layout/full if not learned properly but that has always been my pet peeve.

 

[cheermomforever]

@FamousxMindset Professionally speaking I wouldn't want that to happen until there was an entire revamp of the tumbling grid based on safety and progressions by those who actually teach and coach it as their main job not their side hustle. If you did that we would find that the tumbling skills simply do not evenly match up with the levels we have currently assigned them to. Anytime that is suggested it is said it is too gymnastics like but they fail to recognize most gymnasts do not even do series BHS unless it is on Beam or in the Level 4 compulsory routine which will change this year.

Most gyms simply do not focus on standing tumbling with the focus of creating power to do harder skills. They also fail to recognize the brain has to get used to flipping over so many multiple times before throwing a tuck into the mix. For example in my tumbling class curriculum it is a requirement to be able to do at least 3 BHS connected from a stand and a run, plus HS snap down series BHS before ever executing tucks. This is in my Level 2 tumbling classes and Back Tuck Focus tumbling classes. By the time they get to Level 3 they should be able to start working those tucks safely. So my athletes coming out of Level 2 tumbling classes or Back Tuck Focus tumbling classes can do connected series because that is the way I wrote the curriculum. To prepare them for the next level BEFORE they get to the next level

Then we assume that coaches will not put athletes in levels they can not do which we all know from experience that is not the case for many, many,many different reasons. Until there is a check and balance on that as well that prevents coaches AND parents from doing this we will continue to see this be an issue. Right now it is on the coaches. If there was more trust in the industry as a whole, they could do something to make that happen.

As to R5 they have already made the decision to gut that division to force gyms to compete in Worlds divisions whether they want to or not or else face losing athletes to other gyms. But in no way should a standing full be allowed in R5. Whips should not be allowed in L4 either because it messes up the set of a layout/full if not learned properly but that has always been my pet peeve.

A lot of tumbling progression is so wrong in cheer, if it's there at all. If coaches would focus more on how to get the next tumbling skill instead of "chucking" it, to get to a level then we would c less janky tumbling. (Maybe)

 

[tumbleyoda]

A lot of tumbling progression is so wrong in cheer, if it's there at all. If coaches would focus more on how to get the next tumbling skill instead of "chucking" it, to get to a level then we would c less janky tumbling. (Maybe)

There has definitely been some progress in this area. But the central issue IMO is coaches are more driven to hit the scoresheet than they are about proper progressions and perfecting them. Because hitting the scoresheets is what gives them the results they want to see ie winning, being a successful program, being better than the program down the street, etc. So everything in essence becomes driven by that. This is why I will always advocate for tumbling programs (and coaches) to be INDEPENDENT of the cheer program in a gym. Meaning they run their own curriculum, promotion, retention etc. and are not influenced or ruled by what cheer coach has saw on youtube, twitter, or flocheer that week and now wants their team to do regardless to if they are physically, mentally or skill ready or not. Not even caring if they are causing mental blocks by throwing stuff at athletes that are not ready for it all for the sake of a wow or a win.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

@FamousxMindset Professionally speaking I wouldn't want that to happen until there was an entire revamp of the tumbling grid based on safety and progressions by those who actually teach and coach it as their main job not their side hustle. If you did that we would find that the tumbling skills simply do not evenly match up with the levels we have currently assigned them to. Anytime that is suggested it is said it is too gymnastics like but they fail to recognize most gymnasts do not even do series BHS unless it is on Beam or in the Level 4 compulsory routine which will change this year.

Most gyms simply do not focus on standing tumbling with the focus of creating power to do harder skills. They also fail to recognize the brain has to get used to flipping over so many multiple times before throwing a tuck into the mix. For example in my tumbling class curriculum it is a requirement to be able to do at least 3 BHS connected from a stand and a run, plus HS snap down series BHS before ever executing tucks. This is in my Level 2 tumbling classes and Back Tuck Focus tumbling classes. By the time they get to Level 3 they should be able to start working those tucks safely. So my athletes coming out of Level 2 tumbling classes or Back Tuck Focus tumbling classes can do connected series because that is the way I wrote the curriculum. To prepare them for the next level BEFORE they get to the next level

Then we assume that coaches will not put athletes in levels they can not do which we all know from experience that is not the case for many, many,many different reasons. Until there is a check and balance on that as well that prevents coaches AND parents from doing this we will continue to see this be an issue. Right now it is on the coaches. If there was more trust in the industry as a whole, they could do something to make that happen.

As to R5 they have already made the decision to gut that division to force gyms to compete in Worlds divisions whether they want to or not or else face losing athletes to other gyms. But in no way should a standing full be allowed in R5. Whips should not be allowed in L4 either because it messes up the set of a layout/full if not learned properly but that has always been my pet peeve.

This is also a good point.

This is why we see so many low/scary fulls.

No one stays on layout/Level 4 long enough to have the set/power enough in the high/hollow to make them high enough to make it around with straight legs.

The focus is on spinning. Not on the high and hollow part.

 

[BlueCat]

Ultimately, the scoresheet needs to reward/punish more for technique. That would create more incentives to encourage stronger technique.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Ultimately, the scoresheet needs to reward/punish more for technique. That would create more incentives to encourage stronger technique.

Agree. But we would have to have judges properly trained to see and reward technique the same way across the board. I realize that is a separate yet connected issue.

 

[Adrirocks]

Do teams not loose points for spinning balls of death? I feel like nice clean doubles should score higher than something that makes me fear for the athletes safety.

 

[luv2cheer92]

Do teams not loose points for spinning balls of death? I feel like nice clean doubles should score higher than something that makes me fear for the athletes safety.

I mean if an entire team is doing scary tumbling yes the score should be lower. But the scoring ranges are so narrow that 1 or 2 spinning balls of death will probably have little to no effect on the overall technique score. Making the ranges wider to really separate teams and even having some kind of deduction for scary technique (the worlds deduction for incomplete rotations comes to mind) would be a good start to help increase the focus on technique and safety.

 

[123jump4!]

CP's coach has told the parents that only tumbling with good technique gets put into the routine. I assumed this was because he wants the team to do well, so therefore I assumed bad technique is not rewarded by judges?