All-Star What's A Normal Variance In Score?

[Michael White]

This. Add in the component of comparative scoring and it can easily change that much comp to comp. That is also why you can't compare scores between divisions and why many, probably most, comps do video reviews for bids. Ideal, absolutely not, but it's the nature of the current scoring system.

I called for a review at a competition where the other team had barely even half team back walkovers and I had 16 out of 17 doing triple back walkovers, and 13 out of 17 doing front walkover double back walkover. The other team scored higher in tumbling. The review came back and scores weren't changed. That was very disheartening.

(I know you said video reviews for bids, but I assume it's the same process for a division review?)

 

[BlueCat]

I would encourage people to remember that it not possible to be an unbiased observer of teams when you have a particular interest in one or more of the competitors. It is simply unavoidable human nature to view your own team favorably and the "enemy" teams with a negative eye. This leads to many conspiracy theories, IMO, because your view of the results are skewed. You think your team obviously did better than Team X, so you come up with other reasons why the results came out the way they did. (EP wants to keep customer X happy, etc.).

I am not saying that mistakes aren't made (they are). I am also not saying that results are never skewed by politics. I just think those things are far less common than people believe.

FWIW, big gyms often feel that they are getting scored lower than they should because of biases also. This is probably true far less often than we would believe as well.

 

[catlady]

Timing, basket height, basket rotation, feet in tumbling, straight legs, pointed toes, feet in baskets, feet in jumps, height in jumps, movement in the stunt, transition cleanliness, body positions, performance, energy level, ... At the beginning of the season I expect judges to be focused on routine content and overall difficulty but, by the end of the season, I expect technique, timing, energy, and cleanliness to become the focus. Taking @Michael White above scenario, at the beginning of the year I would expect his tumbling to score high on difficulty but, by the end of the season if every leg isn't straight, toe pointed and timing spot on, then I would consider it average to below average tumbling and IMO the difficulty score should go down, quality versus quantity. Please note, I'm just taking his example and NOT saying that was his circumstance, I think we have all had moments where we question decisions. All Star cheer judging tends to be much more like dance versus gymnastics.

 

[Michael White]

Timing, basket height, basket rotation, feet in tumbling, straight legs, pointed toes, feet in baskets, feet in jumps, height in jumps, movement in the stunt, transition cleanliness, body positions, performance, energy level, ... At the beginning of the season I expect judges to be focused on routine content and overall difficulty but, by the end of the season, I expect technique, timing, energy, and cleanliness to become the focus. Taking @Michael White above scenario, at the beginning of the year I would expect his tumbling to score high on difficulty but, by the end of the season if every leg isn't straight, toe pointed and timing spot on, then I would consider it average to below average tumbling and IMO the difficulty score should go down, quality versus quantity. Please note, I'm just taking his example and NOT saying that was his circumstance, I think we have all had moments where we question decisions. All Star cheer judging tends to be much more like dance versus gymnastics.

Well that would certainly affect the technique score. But how could I possibly score lower in difficulty?

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

IMO, over the years as the competition companies have attempted to make the scoring more and more OBJECTIVE, they've created such a mess that it's done just the opposite. The SUBJECTIVE opinions of judges have become much more influential. Reading the Varsity All Star scoring rubric, page 1, "pyramid difficulty", a 5-point category and every team should score between a 3 and a 5. Why have a 5-point category if every team is going to score within a 2-point range? "Toss difficulty," every team that manages to throw a toss of some sort, no matter what type of toss, scores between a 4 and a 5. Why not just call it a 1 point category?

The dance category is "5 points" but every team scores between 4 and 5.

The performance category is "10 points" but every team scores between 9 and 10

The routine composition category is "10 points" but every team scores between a 9 and 10

By handcuffing the judges into these very narrow ranges, small, subjective inconsistencies in judging become magnified in the final score. For example, if I'm a judge and I am traditionally a "hard" judge on dance, in my head it might seem like I'm not being too harsh if my average score is 0.5 less than my colleagues, but in reality, that's 50% of their possible score in that category.

Why not open it up a bit so that those teams that really can't dance get scored accordingly, and those teams that blow it out on stage get rewarded accordingly?

Why not open it up a bit so that those teams that don't do a single level appropriate toss score close to 0 than they do 5?

Even teams that don't do level appropriate pyramid skills are going to score closer to 5 than they do 0.

ETA: I don't coach all stars, but try to keep up through some friends of mine that do. I am basing my statement on how I read the scoring rubric. I've learned over time that what is in print is sometimes not what's relayed in coaches' meetings or actually done "in practice."

 

[catlady]

Well that would certainly affect the technique score. But how could I possibly score lower in difficulty?

It's only my opinion but, I don't feel all tumbling is safe tumbling. I see some athletes throwing a skill but, I don't necessarily agree that just because it is thrown, it should be counted. Anytime I see head grazing, twisting or fetal position BWO's or BHS's I feel it goes way beyond technique issues. ETA-I do believe there is some slack allowance at the beginning of the season but, by the end, it should at least look solid on level IMO.

 

[ChicagoCheerDad]

It's only my opinion but, I don't feel all tumbling is safe tumbling. I see some athletes throwing a skill but, I don't necessarily agree that just because it is thrown, it should be counted. Anytime I see head grazing, twisting or fetal position BWO's or BHS's I feel it goes way beyond technique issues. ETA-I do believe there is some slack allowance at the beginning of the season but, by the end, it should at least look solid on level IMO.

Also a back bend kickover shouldn't count as a poor form backwalkover or level appropriate tumbling.

 

[Nikki Moore]

Also a back bend kickover shouldn't count as a poor form backwalkover or level appropriate tumbling.

A bridge kick over shouldn't count for level appropriate tumbling? For level 1? Lots of girls on level 1 don't have their BWO but if they all do a BKO and they look pretty and timed well, why shouldn't they count?
Maybe I am reading what you wrote wrong?

 

[cheer25mom]

I'm seeing this even when I don't have a team in the competition. We just go watch local competition none of our teams competing and see the same thing. Small gym who clearly put on a better performance often don't win when a big-name Gymis on the mat


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[Michael White]

It's only my opinion but, I don't feel all tumbling is safe tumbling. I see some athletes throwing a skill but, I don't necessarily agree that just because it is thrown, it should be counted. Anytime I see head grazing, twisting or fetal position BWO's or BHS's I feel it goes way beyond technique issues. ETA-I do believe there is some slack allowance at the beginning of the season but, by the end, it should at least look solid on level IMO.

All of my girls had great back walkovers, maybe not perfectly straight legs, but good timing. There is no arguing DIFFICULTY in tumbling. Sorry. I had enough to score higher than the other team, there's no debating it. They had less tumbling than me, and less combo passes, but scored higher in tumbling difficulty, I'm not sure about technique scoring, but my difficulty score should have been higher, and the review was ineffective at rectifying the situation.

 

[catlady]

All of my girls had great back walkovers, maybe not perfectly straight legs, but good timing. There is no arguing DIFFICULTY in tumbling. Sorry. I had enough to score higher than the other team, there's no debating it. They had less tumbling than me, and less combo passes, but scored higher in tumbling difficulty, I'm not sure about technique scoring, but my difficulty score should have been higher, and the review was ineffective at rectifying the situation.

My quote from above: Please note, I'm just taking his example and NOT saying that was his circumstance, I think we have all had moments where we question decisions. I used your example and tried to be as clear as possible in stating that I was not stating this was your circumstance.

I disagree that there's "no arguing difficulty", some of the tumbling I've seen is not what I personally consider competition worthy and should not be counted in the ratio.

 

[cheer25mom]

All of my girls had great back walkovers, maybe not perfectly straight legs, but good timing. There is no arguing DIFFICULTY in tumbling. Sorry. I had enough to score higher than the other team, there's no debating it. They had less tumbling than me, and less combo passes, but scored higher in tumbling difficulty, I'm not sure about technique scoring, but my difficulty score should have been higher, and the review was ineffective at rectifying the situation.

This. There shouldn't be a question about difficulty scores if one can count.


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[cheer25mom]

A bridge kick over shouldn't count for level appropriate tumbling? For level 1? Lots of girls on level 1 don't have their BWO but if they all do a BKO and they look pretty and timed well, why shouldn't they count?
Maybe I am reading what you wrote wrong?

It shouldn't count the same as a BWO.


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[Nikki Moore]

It shouldn't count the same as a BWO.


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But it should still be level appropriate for Level 1?

 

[cheer25mom]

But it should still be level appropriate for Level 1?

It's on Varsity's skill list so yes. It counts for something, but I don't think it should count the same as a BWO


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