All-Star What's A Normal Variance In Score?

[Cobalt_Jeron]

Neither should a punch front vs punch front forward roll.

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[CC1107]

Neither should a punch front vs punch front forward roll.

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I hate, HATE punch front forward rolls. Luckily so do the coaches of my daughter's Senior 3 team. lol There's not a single PF, FR to be found

 

[cheer25mom]

My quote from above: Please note, I'm just taking his example and NOT saying that was his circumstance, I think we have all had moments where we question decisions. I used your example and tried to be as clear as possible in stating that I was not stating this was your circumstance.

I disagree that there's "no arguing difficulty", some of the tumbling I've seen is not what I personally consider competition worthy and should not be counted in the ratio.

But according to the rules as I understand them, if the skill is completed it counts. Execution is a separate score. I don't totally disagree with you, but under the rules, as they stand now, if you complete the skill you get credit.


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[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I hate, HATE punch front forward rolls. Luckily so do the coaches of my daughter's Senior 3 team. lol There's not a single PF, FR to be found

Thankfully, if I heard correctly when a buddy of mine was doing safety certification for next year recently, that PF, FR may be on its way out. God knows my ACL's scream in agony every time I see one performed.

 

[dat.jpp]

All I have to say: Amazing how certain levels changed after the 2014-15 season because during a competition that season, for example: a level 3 team would have literally 2-3 touch downs in running tumbling. It's rare to see a touch down this season or last season.

 

[torycf]

We competed in a large competition this week-end; 12 teams in our division. We have been up against one other team all season and they always beat us but it's usually within a point or less. This week-end on day 2 their whole pyramid came down when they have been perfect all season (they're really good- don't get me wrong) but they ended up in 4th and we got 9th with zero deductions. I don't get it- same scoresheet all season...

 

[catlady]

But according to the rules as I understand them, if the skill is completed it counts. Execution is a separate score. I don't totally disagree with you, but under the rules, as they stand now, if you complete the skill you get credit.
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My definition of "completing a skill" is evidently different than most. I do not believe head grazing, twisting, or fetal position BWO's or BHS's are "completed skills", along with head grazing tucks, and severely under rotated fulls. I do believe there is a difference between "execution" and "safety" and feel very strongly coaches should not be rewarded for competing unsafe tumbling. I applaud any judge that refuses to count a skill as "complete" when it's putting an athlete's brain, back or knees at risk just to max out their difficulty score.

 

[cheer25mom]

My definition of "completing a skill" is evidently different than most. I do not believe head grazing, twisting, or fetal position BWO's or BHS's are "completed skills", along with head grazing tucks, and severely under rotated fulls. I do believe there is a difference between "execution" and "safety" and feel very strongly coaches should not be rewarded for competing unsafe tumbling. I applaud any judge that refuses to count a skill as "complete" when it's putting an athlete's brain, back or knees at risk just to max out their difficulty score.

I definitely agree that the rule needs to change. I have seen some SCARY tumbling put on the mat. I was just saying that as it stands now, any completed skill gets counted. I don't know exactly how to go about changing it, or how to develop a definition of a completed skill that is objective enough that it can be universally applied though.

 

[catlady]

@cheer25mom I'm not sure the rule needs to change, I just think people are interpreting it in different ways. To me, under rotated anything, is not a "completed skill", and anything unsafe is not a "skill". I haven't seen enough score sheets, or asked a coach, to know if judges do or do not count what most would consider gasp worthy tumbling as complete, or not. Are there any coaches that can answer that question?

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

My definition of "completing a skill" is evidently different than most. I do not believe head grazing, twisting, or fetal position BWO's or BHS's are "completed skills", along with head grazing tucks, and severely under rotated fulls. I do believe there is a difference between "execution" and "safety" and feel very strongly coaches should not be rewarded for competing unsafe tumbling. I applaud any judge that refuses to count a skill as "complete" when it's putting an athlete's brain, back or knees at risk just to max out their difficulty score.

I agree for the most part, though I will say, it's not always the coach's fault, nor is it that the coach is competing unsafe tumbling. The skill in question can look very different on the practice floor than the comp floor. Especially the first time the athlete is competing it. Even if the athlete has thrown it with great confidence mid-routine in full outs on the practice floor. It's not always predictable how the pressures of competition, fatigue from a weekend traveling, etc will impact and athlete on the competition floor.

There's also the "dumb" factor that comes into play. Sometimes kids do something dumb that causes tumble crashes. I watched a video of a routine from about 15 years ago. this was performed at one of the MAJOR competitions. This was back in the days when every kid got their own corner tumbling pass. This kid was waiting for hers in the corner of the mat giving the "hands up and fake pull standing in the corner so everyone knows I'm about to do my full sign" while the rest of her team did their 72 minute tumbling section. She was one of the last to go. She did her step-step hurdle and with both steps she held her hands over her head and pointed to herself so everyone would be paying attention to her. She then proceeded to misplace her foot on her hurdle and slam her face into the mat prior to her roundoff.

I'm sure it was a gorgeous skill in practice.

 

[Cobalt_Jeron]

The problem isn't that the judges give you credit for an unsafe skill. If the skill is performed it should get credit on the difficulty side of the score sheet. If its done poorly then you'll get hit on the execution side of the score sheet. If we let the judges decide if it should count or not, then that brings in a whole host of other problems concerning the subjectivity in judging of this sport.

The main problem is the fact coaches let them perform a skill they can't do safely. Also as big a problem is the parents that want Suzie on a level 3 team even though she should be level 2 or even 1, more than they want her to be safe. Fix those 2 problems and you'll stop seeing unsafe tumbling and the judges will never have to choose what should count.

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[DaniV]

@cheer25mom I'm not sure the rule needs to change, I just think people are interpreting it in different ways. To me, under rotated anything, is not a "completed skill", and anything unsafe is not a "skill". I haven't seen enough score sheets, or asked a coach, to know if judges do or do not count what most would consider gasp worthy tumbling as complete, or not. Are there any coaches that can answer that question?

In my experience, even really ugly slow bhs that land in the crouched position or have really bent arms are still being counted - it's just getting hammered in the technique section. The amount of times I've seen gyms put round-off, short pause arm swing ugly bhs on the floor.... ugh. It makes me cringe. They're literally sacrificing a point in technique just to gain however many tenths in difficulty.

 

[cheer25mom]

The problem isn't that the judges give you credit for an unsafe skill. If the skill is performed it should get credit on the difficulty side of the score sheet. If its done poorly then you'll get hit on the execution side of the score sheet. If we let the judges decide if it should count or not, then that brings in a whole host of other problems concerning the subjectivity in judging of this sport.

The main problem is the fact coaches let them perform a skill they can't do safely. Also as big a problem is the parents that want Suzie on a level 3 team even though she should be level 2 or even 1, more than they want her to be safe. Fix those 2 problems and you'll stop seeing unsafe tumbling and the judges will never have to choose what should count.

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Yes, but for some coaches, they will keep doing it unless and until the score sheet makes them pay for it.

 

[cheer25mom]

In my experience, even really ugly slow bhs that land in the crouched position or have really bent arms are still being counted - it's just getting hammered in the technique section. The amount of times I've seen gyms put round-off, short pause arm swing ugly bhs on the floor.... ugh. It makes me cringe. They're literally sacrificing a point in technique just to gain however many tenths in difficulty.

This has been the experience with my CP's level 2 team as well. They JUST make the 75% standing tumbling. They don't put unsafe tumbling on the floor. If everyone throws, they always hit the high difficulty range, even when a kid does something mental or just missteps and and the BHS looks awful. As long as it doesn't count as a tumbling touchdown it counts.

 

[Michael White]

Yes, but for some coaches, they will keep doing it unless and until the score sheet makes them pay for it.

I mean it's a balance. I would gladly take an ugly (but I'd never allow an unsafe) skill and take the hit on technique if it meant getting into the next difficulty range (majority, full team, etc.).