All-Star Why Does This Continue To Happen?

[catlady]

Define a true level team. If a gym wants a level 3 team with full team punch fronts, you are going to have kids with various upper level skills. Over the last 6 years I have definitely seen the teams get more competitive in levels 1-4 and while it shouldn't be ALL about the win, I don't blame those gyms that are starting to require the higher end requirements by level. IMO kids with solid on level skills are less likely to block, get injured, or injure others when they have to start throwing those skills in fast paced difficult routines. Mind you, I'm not talking about level 5's going to level 2 but, I've seen plenty of kids able to throw a tuck and running tuck but, have their feet miles apart in their BHS's with grandma jumps. Is that kid level 2, 3, or 4?

 

[123jump4!]

I just don't think this would work. What about the kid who was on level 3 at a small gym with no tumbling because she was senior age who goes to a large gym and needs to be placed on level 1? There are just too many possible exceptions. With so many, people will find loopholes and it would be totally ineffective.

I think it's worth a try, or something else. The summit rules were a step in the right direction but hasn't solved the problem. If Sandbag Allstars only enter a level 2 team in Summit, they are free to sandbag as much as they want, no restrictions. And in most of the regular season comps.

If gymnastics can have fair levels then cheer should be able to have at least fair-er.

 

[cheer25mom]

I think it's worth a try, or something else. The summit rules were a step in the right direction but hasn't solved the problem. If Sandbag Allstars only enter a level 2 team in Summit, they are free to sandbag as much as they want, no restrictions. And in most of the regular season comps.

If gymnastics can have fair levels then cheer should be able to have at least fair-er.

I definitely think something needs to be done. I just don't think leveling athletes will work, unless someone outside the gym is evaluating and leveling them, and there are definite rules about when and how a level can change. Even then, an athlete can "throw" an evaluation if they know the gym will only place them on a lower level team.

Something definitely needs to be done. I think it would be more effective if everyone adopted the summit rules. You can cross only one level. You should never be allowed to cross from a worlds team to level 2, regardless of what competition you are at. If the kid has the talent, putting them on level 2 means you cannot use them on level 5. There should also be a limit on roster changes for end of season events. The same rules should apply if they competed level 4 during the season, the are eligible for level 3 or 4 at summit. You shouldn't be able to take a level 2 team that got a bid replace them with your level 4 team that didn't.

 

[123jump4!]

I definitely think something needs to be done. I just don't think leveling athletes will work, unless someone outside the gym is evaluating and leveling them, and there are definite rules about when and how a level can change. Even then, an athlete can "throw" an evaluation if they know the gym will only place them on a lower level team.

Something definitely needs to be done. I think it would be more effective if everyone adopted the summit rules. You can cross only one level. You should never be allowed to cross from a worlds team to level 2, regardless of what competition you are at. If the kid has the talent, putting them on level 2 means you cannot use them on level 5. There should also be a limit on roster changes for end of season events. The same rules should apply if they competed level 4 during the season, the are eligible for level 3 or 4 at summit. You shouldn't be able to take a level 2 team that got a bid replace them with your level 4 team that didn't.

Good suggestions.

I realized my suggestion of a ban forever on more than 1 level down from what you have been on, is too harsh. Things happen. Someone switches gyms, a gym that had a level 5 now only have level 3, etc. But how about only 1 level down ever in the same saeason? That should work. Which is similar to what you said.

 

[cheer25mom]

Define a true level team. If a gym wants a level 3 team with full team punch fronts, you are going to have kids with various upper level skills. Over the last 6 years I have definitely seen the teams get more competitive in levels 1-4 and while it shouldn't be ALL about the win, I don't blame those gyms that are starting to require the higher end requirements by level. IMO kids with solid on level skills are less likely to block, get injured, or injure others when they have to start throwing those skills in fast paced difficult routines. Mind you, I'm not talking about level 5's going to level 2 but, I've seen plenty of kids able to throw a tuck and running tuck but, have their feet miles apart in their BHS's with grandma jumps. Is that kid level 2, 3, or 4?

For me, if a kid has all the skills to be level 4, can throw them with decent quality within a routine, there is a level 4 team available for them, but they are either exclusively or also cheering on level 2, that is inappropriate placement. When you do it with half the athletes on a team or more, that is sandbagging. I agree that there are occasions when a kid just isn't ready for the next level up, even though they can gut out the skills, and that is very different than stacking or sandbagging.

 

[SL&AM]

This applies to customers who have been in this industry for years. Some people do not care if their kids are on level appropriate teams or not as long as they are winning jackets. I see it every day. Kids my kids cheered with 7 years ago on minis are on level 2 teams. They are winning and they and their parents are thrilled. There's nothing wrong with it - it works for some and not for others. Gyms have different philosophies just like any other business.

We had a parent at our gym this year who consistently reminded people that she would have preferred bigger, winable comps so that the kids could earn jackets, banners, medals...etc, etc. She didn't care about anything else because it would make for better Facebook pictures.

 

[catlady]

For me, if a kid has all the skills to be level 4, can throw them with decent quality within a routine, there is a level 4 team available for them, but they are either exclusively or also cheering on level 2, that is inappropriate placement. When you do it with half the athletes on a team or more, that is sandbagging. I agree that there are occasions when a kid just isn't ready for the next level up, even though they can gut out the skills, and that is very different than stacking or sandbagging.

I'm personally a big fan of NCA rules. If they are cheering level 4, then they should be crossing level 4 or 4.2 only, IMO. I do hear many parents state, however, "that's not a true level 2 team" and I often wonder what they are using for their guidelines. There are level 2 teams out there with head grazing, frog legged bhs's and there are level 2's out there with near full team fwo, ro, bhs's/ cartwheel bhs's/ bwo bhs's. They are both actually "true" level 2 teams IMO even if the team with near full skills may have some level 3 or 4 skills.

My guess is many gyms crossover as many athletes as they can on varying levels and whatever team gets the bid first is the roster they will stick to and have to keep at least 75% for the Summit. I don't like it but, that's what I assume goes on. I feel for the level 1 beginners out there that want to cheer and have no skills, they truly don't have a place anymore.

 

[cheerisloving]

Good suggestions.

I realized my suggestion of a ban forever on more than 1 level down from what you have been on, is too harsh. Things happen. Someone switches gyms, a gym that had a level 5 now only have level 3, etc. But how about only 1 level down ever in the same saeason? That should work. Which is similar to what you said.

How does gymnastics qualify levels for individual athletes, is it a national thing, that actually prevents them from competing at a lower level? I know they are more strict about level progression but I'm wondering if we can adapt it.

 

[tumbleyoda]

How does gymnastics qualify levels for individual athletes, is it a national thing, that actually prevents them from competing at a lower level? I know they are more strict about level progression but I'm wondering if we can adapt it.

I doubt it would be completely adaptable, because the training modality is so different. Gymnastics will take a year or more to perfect one skill in all it's phases while cheer is in a rush to get a skill, then get the next skill so you can move up. Typically moving slow and steady is seen in the cheer industry as "not progressing fast enough" And while gymnastics parents can get like cheer parents in the when is my child moving up type actions, they recognize fully that moving up before ready will mean a long season of low placements. They are trained for the long haul on skill progressions.

For scoring purposes you have a certain score range you must get as an individual in order to mobilize to move up. The gymnasts we had do it this season had to score a 32.00 all around - 8.0 or higher per event. A weaker event can be covered by your stronger events. Then there is also a mandate score range where you have no choice but to move up to the next level which limits the sandbagging issue. The thing here is that the judges are independent - trained by an independent body and are admonished ethically to not judge events where their gym or their direct competitors are competing. The gym hosting the event contacts the judging organization and the judging association assigns the judges. Which IMO is one of the biggest current flaws with All Stars and would solve a whole lot of other problems that we see.

 

[Cheer4U2]

The way I understand it they were only required to compete in D1 at the comp they got the bid at.

My youth 1 team has a bid to D1 Summit and we are a D2 gym and they always compete against the D1 teams and so far they have been winning! Also if you're trying to upgrade to a paid bid you have to compete as D1!

 

[cheerisloving]

I doubt it would be completely adaptable, because the training modality is so different. Gymnastics will take a year or more to perfect one skill in all it's phases while cheer is in a rush to get a skill, then get the next skill so you can move up. Typically moving slow and steady is seen in the cheer industry as "not progressing fast enough" And while gymnastics parents can get like cheer parents in the when is my child moving up type actions, they recognize fully that moving up before ready will mean a long season of low placements. They are trained for the long haul on skill progressions.

For scoring purposes you have a certain score range you must get as an individual in order to mobilize to move up. The gymnasts we had do it this season had to score a 32.00 all around - 8.0 or higher per event. A weaker event can be covered by your stronger events. Then there is also a mandate score range where you have no choice but to move up to the next level which limits the sandbagging issue. The thing here is that the judges are independent - trained by an independent body and are admonished ethically to not judge events where they or their direct competitors are judging. The gym hosting the event contacts the judging organization and the judging association assigns the judges. Which IMO is one of the biggest current flaws with All Stars and would solve a whole lot of other problems that we see.

I get it, we are very single skill oriented while gym has you master everything before you move on. It's why we have girls with double fulls and no back walkover. And there are people who can be successful level 5 stunters without the stunters, something some teams value.

SO if we aren't doing it through skill, how about just in name? We register athletes, we should be keeping track. How hard is it to make some rules on crossovers like we see at NCA? Even if it's adjusted to gym size.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I get it, we are very single skill oriented while gym has you master everything before you move on. It's why we have girls with double fulls and know back walkover. And there are people who can be successful level 5 stunters without the stunters, something some teams value.

SO if we aren't doing it through skill, how about just in name? We register athletes, we should be keeping track. How hard is it to make some rules on crossovers like we see at NCA? Even if it's adjusted to gym size.

The thing is there would have to be a common agreed upon acceptable standard. What passes for acceptable for me may not be acceptable for another coach or program and vice versa. As a coach with a gymnastic background I can not tell you the amount of cheer coaches that have told me "it don't take all that" "they just need to land" "we need three more doing the skill to hit the scoresheet" etc. Then you go to competitions and one judge gives you no deductions for crossed ankles in fulls, whips that are not truly whips, and then the next weekend with the same brand another judge gives you deductions like crazy. Until we get out of the if it lands, it's good mindset that predominates cheer, it will be hard to set an industry standard.

What we all can do in our individual programs is raise the standard. In the example you cite - all my Restricted 5 and Level 5 athletes can do BWO - even the boys. Because it is a stressed part of our tumbling class curriculum. If we get one that can't do it, it is usually because they moved here from somewhere else. We address it through the curriculum which makes learning that skill m as well as body shaping a priority. The best thing in our case is our tumbling program is run separate from the cheer program. I don't coach cheer (unless I have to sub) so I am not worried about a scoresheet. As many instructors as I can hire that are not cheer coaches I do for that program. This way we can focus on building the department in a way that emphasizes and rewards proper progressions without the scoresheet being our focus.

The other thing is that to truly be level IMO it should encompass stunting, tumbling, jumps and dance. Here is a major problem. We expect Youth 2 to dance like Senior 5 without the suggestive movements. A Junior 4 tumbler can only stunt 2 due to a growth spurt and has been put on the ground in favor of a Youth flier without the tumbling. How do we get everyone up to level? The answer has been industry wide is use crossovers to train them. Yet it has become to easy to abuse that just for wins. And as has often been said everyone can justify the use of their own crossovers while condemning everyone else's use of them

 

[Official OWECheer]

Irrelevant but @tumbleyoda your profile pic has me cracking up.

 

[cheerisloving]

The thing is there would have to be a common agreed upon acceptable standard. What passes for acceptable for me may not be acceptable for another coach or program and vice versa. As a coach with a gymnastic background I can not tell you the amount of cheer coaches that have told me "it don't take all that" "they just need to land" "we need three more doing the skill to hit the scoresheet" etc. Then you go to competitions and one judge gives you no deductions for crossed ankles in fulls, whips that are not truly whips, and then the next weekend with the same brand another judge gives you deductions like crazy. Until we get out of the if it lands, it's good mindset that predominates cheer, it will be hard to set an industry standard.

What we all can do in our individual programs is raise the standard. In the example you cite - all my Restricted 5 and Level 5 athletes can do BWO - even the boys. Because it is a stressed part of our tumbling class curriculum. If we get one that can't do it, it is usually because they moved here from somewhere else. We address it through the curriculum which makes learning that skill m as well as body shaping a priority. The best thing in our case is our tumbling program is run separate from the cheer program. I don't coach cheer (unless I have to sub) so I am not worried about a scoresheet. As many instructors as I can hire that are not cheer coaches I do for that program. This way we can focus on building the department in a way that emphasizes and rewards proper progressions without the scoresheet being our focus.

The other thing is that to truly be level IMO it should encompass stunting, tumbling, jumps and dance. Here is a major problem. We expect Youth 2 to dance like Senior 5 without the suggestive movements. A Junior 4 tumbler can only stunt 2 due to a growth spurt and has been put on the ground in favor of a Youth flier without the tumbling. How do we get everyone up to level? The answer has been industry wide is use crossovers to train them. Yet it has become to easy to abuse that just for wins. And as has often been said everyone can justify the use of their own crossovers while condemning everyone else's use of them

I totally agree. Now volunteer coaching, and cheering on a high level, I see cheer so much differently. I much rather be on a team with a girls who are confidently landing skills and executing stunts for safety. Who cares about squad tucks if half the girls in the back are touching down. Scoresheets are guidelines, and there are ways to do well and be safe even without the numbers.

I think being a true level athlete is something that seems arbitrary because tumbling is so individualized and defers the most from level to level. I can brag that I'm a level 6 cheerleader but I in no ways can throw a full. It's hard because the mechanics of tumbling are so unnatural, but the mechanics of stunting can be mastered by anyone with the muscle and strength.

 

[cheer25mom]

I'm personally a big fan of NCA rules. If they are cheering level 4, then they should be crossing level 4 or 4.2 only, IMO. I do hear many parents state, however, "that's not a true level 2 team" and I often wonder what they are using for their guidelines. There are level 2 teams out there with head grazing, frog legged bhs's and there are level 2's out there with near full team fwo, ro, bhs's/ cartwheel bhs's/ bwo bhs's. They are both actually "true" level 2 teams IMO even if the team with near full skills may have some level 3 or 4 skills.

My guess is many gyms crossover as many athletes as they can on varying levels and whatever team gets the bid first is the roster they will stick to and have to keep at least 75% for the Summit. I don't like it but, that's what I assume goes on. I feel for the level 1 beginners out there that want to cheer and have no skills, they truly don't have a place anymore.

When I say it, I mean that I KNOW that half of that team also competes on level 4 or 5. Ideally, anyone competing level 2 should have all their level 2 skills, and be working towards level 3. By the end of the season many of them will have some or all of those skills. But, a kid that has solid level 4 skills and has been competing them all season has no business also competing level 2.