All-Star Why Does This Continue To Happen?

[Official OWECheer]

We have one of those gyms too. They dropped all of their teams 1-2 levels so they could win, and brag about their summit bids. Even though a majority of their level 2 team has athletes with layouts, fulls, and doubles, and their level 1 team has a majority of kids with back handsprings and tucks.


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I don't get how people like that aren't embarrassed by the measures they are taking for a banner or a piece of metal.

 

[Official OWECheer]

I don't think they care as long as they get the banner or nice shiny piece of metal.

I get it... but I don't get it.

 

[WinstonsGirl]

Banner/shiny piece of metal = more people in the doors = more cash for gym owners.

I get it, cos I'm sure it's hard to make a good living as a gym owner until you're established and been running a while. If this brings more money in, I can see why some gym owners would do it

 

[Official OWECheer]

I think that's a good thing.
It's kind of deceiving though, for new customers attracted by the shiny things. They probably assume/believe that the trophies were won by kids who were on a level-appropriate team, and not a lower level just because the owners and/or coaches didn't think the kids could win in their proper division.

Add to that the fact that new parents don't understand that we have a million "Nationals".

 

[quitthedrama]

I think that's a good thing.
It's kind of deceiving though, for new customers attracted by the shiny things. They probably assume/believe that the trophies were won by kids who were on a level-appropriate team, and not a lower level just because the owners and/or coaches didn't think the kids could win in their proper division.

This applies to customers who have been in this industry for years. Some people do not care if their kids are on level appropriate teams or not as long as they are winning jackets. I see it every day. Kids my kids cheered with 7 years ago on minis are on level 2 teams. They are winning and they and their parents are thrilled. There's nothing wrong with it - it works for some and not for others. Gyms have different philosophies just like any other business.

 

[BlueCat]

This isn't an argument for or against, but this is at least partly a result of Summit and the increased importance put on winning at levels 1-4. There is far more pressure now to keep athletes "down" levels to help those teams win. There are positives and negatives to this.

 

[UCFKnights07]

i get the importance of summit, simply because how many kids ever reach a high calibur level 5 worlds team??. Im sure a lot do, but im sure there are plenty kids out there that dont, either because they dont care to or they cant gain the skills to be placed on one. Ive liked the idea of summit because it gives those kids their moment that comes somewhat close to attending worlds, or whatever.

but i dont get why its grown to be more important then an NCA win, which in my honest opinion if i was a lower level athlete NCA would be more of an accomplishment then summit. But i aged out of the sport WAY before summit was ever a thing, so maybe i dont see the bigger picture of it.

however i think as a kid, id be a little crushed to think that my coaches dont believe my level 3. 4, etc team couldnt do as well without adding high level athletes. They stack the team with crossovers, win all season, then because of crossover rules they take them all out and end up doing poorly, coaches/adults may not realize it, but your crushing those kids hopes and attitudes.

 

[tumbleyoda]

i get the importance of summit, simply because how many kids ever reach a high calibur level 5 worlds team??. Im sure a lot do, but im sure there are plenty kids out there that dont, either because they dont care to or they cant gain the skills to be placed on one. Ive liked the idea of summit because it gives those kids their moment that comes somewhat close to attending worlds, or whatever.

but i dont get why its grown to be more important then an NCA win, which in my honest opinion if i was a lower level athlete NCA would be more of an accomplishment then summit. But i aged out of the sport WAY before summit was ever a thing, so maybe i dont see the bigger picture of it.

however i think as a kid, id be a little crushed to think that my coaches dont believe my level 3. 4, etc team couldnt do as well without adding high level athletes. They stack the team with crossovers, win all season, then because of crossover rules they take them all out and end up doing poorly, coaches/adults may not realize it, but your crushing those kids hopes and attitudes.

I have seen teams blow up and come to blows literally over the issue. The lower level or true level athletes resented the Level 5 athletes crossing over to "help" them at big competitions, often taking their weaker flyers out the air and putting the stronger level 5 flyers up. The lower level team resented being "saved" by the upper levels. Finally one day it all blew up. It seriously got ugly and confirmed to me that the crossover madness was insanity that affected the kids way more than we thought. Yes it was cool to win but at the risk of cannibalizing the program in the process.

This was way before there was even a thing as Summit, so it not just because of that event. This has been going on since the leveling system (after Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced) and local gyms have been fighting local gyms to show which was the better gym.

 

[BlueCat]

I have seen teams blow up and come to blows literally over the issue. The lower level or true level athletes resented the Level 5 athletes crossing over to "help" them at big competitions, often taking their weaker flyers out the air and putting the stronger level 5 flyers up. The lower level team resented being "saved" by the upper levels. Finally one day it all blew up. It seriously got ugly and confirmed to me that the crossover madness was insanity that affected the kids way more than we thought. Yes it was cool to win but at the risk of cannibalizing the program in the process.

This was way before there was even a thing as Summit, so it not just because of that event. This has been going on since the leveling system (after Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced) and local gyms have been fighting local gyms to show which was the better gym.

I want to be clear that I am not necessarily advocating either side, because I could easily argue both directions.

The more you promote the wins and accomplishments of L1-4, the more incentive to raise the bar for "graduating" up a level (or crossing athletes "down"). The more you judge/select a gym by the success of their Level 1, the more that gym will want to put (previously considered) level 2 or 3 athletes on that team.

 

[CIACheerMom]

We have one of those gyms too. They dropped all of their teams 1-2 levels so they could win, and brag about their summit bids. Even though a majority of their level 2 team has athletes with layouts, fulls, and doubles, and their level 1 team has a majority of kids with back handsprings and tucks.


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I have seen this becoming more prevalent as well. The focus is on winning and not on the individual growth of each athlete.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I want to be clear that I am not necessarily advocating either side, because I could easily argue both directions.

The more you promote the wins and accomplishments of L1-4, the more incentive to raise the bar for "graduating" up a level (or crossing athletes "down"). The more you judge/select a gym by the success of their Level 1, the more that gym will want to put (previously considered) level 2 or 3 athletes on that team.

I do not disagree with this at all. I like to think that intelligent people can see the merit on both sides regardless to which side they prefer or practice.

I am sad at the fact that novice or new cheerleaders really don't have too much of a chance to truly fall in love with the sport and develop their skills including the crucial competition stress if we are always covering for their weaknesses with a multiplicity of crossovers. The way prep is going they will be pushed out of there as well...all for the wins.

 

[cheer25mom]

I have seen teams blow up and come to blows literally over the issue. The lower level or true level athletes resented the Level 5 athletes crossing over to "help" them at big competitions, often taking their weaker flyers out the air and putting the stronger level 5 flyers up. The lower level team resented being "saved" by the upper levels. Finally one day it all blew up. It seriously got ugly and confirmed to me that the crossover madness was insanity that affected the kids way more than we thought. Yes it was cool to win but at the risk of cannibalizing the program in the process.

This was way before there was even a thing as Summit, so it not just because of that event. This has been going on since the leveling system (after Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced) and local gyms have been fighting local gyms to show which was the better gym.

I have seen it too, and I have seen all of the crossing down, ect result in parents being very reluctant to put their true beginner child on a team. I have talked to MANY parents who say "he/ she will take tumbling classes until they have a BHS/ tuck because otherwise they will just be a nugget the entire routine anyway."

 

[123jump4!]

I think something needs to be done about sandbagging. People will quit cheer if they think it's too unfair. We just had one person pulling their kid over this (in the parent section). And it seems to be getting worse.

Suggestion: If Susie was ever on a roster for a level 3 team for example, she will never be allowed on a team more than one level down. So she can be on a level 2 but she is barred from level 1 forever. Waivers can be applied for in case of serious mental block or injury. There could possibly also be waivers for smaller gyms.

 

[BlueCat]

I do not disagree with this at all. I like to think that intelligent people can see the merit on both sides regardless to which side they prefer or practice.

I am sad at the fact that novice or new cheerleaders really don't have too much of a chance to truly fall in love with the sport and develop their skills including the crucial competition stress if we are always covering for their weaknesses with a multiplicity of crossovers. The way prep is going they will be pushed out of there as well...all for the wins.

There are many seemingly no-brainer positive changes that have unintended downsides that go counter to the original goal. That doesn't necessarily mean you don't make the changes, but there are just negative possibilities that need to be considered before jumping in. Some quick examples I can think of:

1. More divisions/levels/classifications = more chance for smaller gyms to succeed. Allows smaller gym to find a division that is closer to their roster. Downside: a multitude of divisions makes it far easier for a big gym to turn into a huge multi-facility behemoth.

2. Score/compete special needs teams the same way other divisions are scored. It gives those athletes the same competition "feel" as other divisions. Downside: there is now pressure to only put the highest-functioning special athletes on the teams and pressure to have them perform more dangerous skills.

3. Divisions sorted by gym size. Gyms are given the chance to grow before going against more established programs with different sets of advantages. Downsides: Large gyms run practically unopposed in many divisions giving them easier victories. Reinforces the "class" distinction between gym types, possibly creating more incentive for athletes to go the "highest" type of gym. Puts pressure on smaller gyms NOT to grow past an arbitrary enrollment cap.

4. Glorify lower level team wins as much as level 5 Worlds divisions. (covered above)

 

[cheer25mom]

I think something needs to be done about sandbagging. People will quit cheer if they think it's too unfair. We just had one person pulling their kid over this (in the parent section). And it seems to be getting worse.

Suggestion: If Susie was ever on a roster for a level 3 team for example, she will never be allowed on a team more than one level down. So she can be on a level 2 but she is barred from level 1 forever. Waivers can be applied for in case of serious mental block or injury. There could possibly also be waivers for smaller gyms.

I just don't think this would work. What about the kid who was on level 3 at a small gym with no tumbling because she was senior age who goes to a large gym and needs to be placed on level 1? There are just too many possible exceptions. With so many, people will find loopholes and it would be totally ineffective.