All-Star 2016 Scoring...thoughts???

[TheVipersMom]

I feel scoring has been accurate this year.

I feel like we place where we should rather that be 1st or 3rd so that makes me happy. I don't feel the name on uniforms has changed any scoring at all.

We all have summit bids so this doesn't bother me but at the largest nationals we have been to (like the last few times with 8 million judging panels) I don't feel that the scores were consistent across judging panels.

Like one panel is scoring high and the winner to losers place between 98-93

And another panel is scoring low so the winners to losers place 94-87

It doesn't bother me, I don't care about bids and what not so long as the places have been correct then I don't worry about it.

But I don't think that's anyone's fault, if you are putting on the largest competition where the best of the best compete I understand you are getting different perspective..so I come to expect that.

I have liked the advances in scoring every year. I feel like our coaches figure out each season what they are looking for and we go that route. Cheer in evolving and teams should be evolving too.

I swear when my daughter was on j2 (3 years ago at stars) and they won everything and bids everywhere they went that was the best dang j2 routine there was. Now I watch it and these J2's would kill them and I love that!


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[omgitssydthekid]

But... If placements were correct, why would it look to your parents like you don't know the score sheet? Different judges have different perceptions of what is considered an "average" score for difficulty or technique, and how much of a "bonus" to give teams that show above average difficulty or technique. Since ranges have been widened this year, it makes sense that scoring variability between weekends would increase, with different panels of judges, but in general, it sounds like you've found your placements to be correct. Why does it matter if the numerical score varies, when it sounds like judges are giving your teams a consistent *degree* of bonus for above average difficulty and/or technique, as reflected in your placements?

As for the code of points, I am not against it in theory. I do think that it would be very difficult to create and implement, and I also think that secondary and tertiary effects of the implementation of such need to be considered (possible stifling of creativity - why do innovative skills that are not listed in the CoP?; possible increased risk to participants, by having athletes perform skills to "max out" that they may not be prepared for, as seen this year with the implementation of elite skills; possible effect being that the score sheet becomes entirely subjective if everyone has the exact same amount of objective difficulty skills, so the only differentiators are subjective creativity and technique scores; etc).

My parents are concerned about the actual score the teams get, not just their placement. I (as a coach) understand that scores can vary because the scoresheet is subjective, but I really don't like how subjective difficulty is. It would be different if it was a point or two difference between competitions, but it's been as much as 5 for my own teams I know of another gym who has had scores vary by 7 points.

I always stress to the kids when we make goals that we don't stress scores, we only stress hitting zero and doing that cleanly because that's all we have control over. But that's hard to explain to parents that don't understand the scoresheet, and they don't really need to understand them and they shouldn't have to.

And overall, I have thought that our placements were correct. There was one competition where I didn't agree with a placement, but that team ended up with a d1 summit bid that weekend so I was more ok with how it turned out.

And don't get me started on the point ranges. It is almost impossible to NOT get in the high range for stunts because it's a full point, while the average and below categories are only half a point. I genuinely don't think I've seen a team that hasn't scored in the high range for their stunts/pyramid all season. The inconsistency in that alone really bothers me and has bothered me since the score sheets were first posted. The ranges should all be the same so that they are weighted properly. I'm fine with the high range being one point, but the low and average ranges should be a full point too.


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[123jump4!]

My parents are concerned about the actual score the teams get, not just their placement. I (as a coach) understand that scores can vary because the scoresheet is subjective, but I really don't like how subjective difficulty is. It would be different if it was a point or two difference between competitions, but it's been as much as 5 for my own teams I know of another gym who has had scores vary by 7 points.

I always stress to the kids when we make goals that we don't stress scores, we only stress hitting zero and doing that cleanly because that's all we have control over. But that's hard to explain to parents that don't understand the scoresheet, and they don't really need to understand them and they shouldn't have to.

And overall, I have thought that our placements were correct. There was one competition where I didn't agree with a placement, but that team ended up with a d1 summit bid that weekend so I was more ok with how it turned out.

And don't get me started on the point ranges. It is almost impossible to NOT get in the high range for stunts because it's a full point, while the average and below categories are only half a point. I genuinely don't think I've seen a team that hasn't scored in the high range for their stunts/pyramid all season. The inconsistency in that alone really bothers me and has bothered me since the score sheets were first posted. The ranges should all be the same so that they are weighted properly. I'm fine with the high range being one point, but the low and average ranges should be a full point too.


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Do you share the scores with parents? I've never seen any scores and while I would be curious it's probably for the best!

 

[omgitssydthekid]

Do you share the scores with parents? I've never seen any scores and while I would be curious it's probably for the best!

I avoid it whenever it is possible [emoji16] sometimes the competition will post them so it is unavoidable at that point haha. However I would never go over scoresheets with parents. I could literally have a team score a 99/100 and still wouldn't want to go over my scoresheets with parents. Not because of anything bad with my parents, they're awesome. But just because of how the scoresheet is set up because it is so subjective and varies so much from competition to competition.


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[ArizonaMVP]

I avoid it whenever it is possible [emoji16] sometimes the competition will post them so it is unavoidable at that point haha. However I would never go over scoresheets with parents. I could literally have a team score a 99/100 and still wouldn't want to go over my scoresheets with parents. Not because of anything bad with my parents, they're awesome. But just because of how the scoresheet is set up because it is so subjective and varies so much from competition to competition.

Educated parents make a gym better IMO. I hear complaints about lack of transparency all the time. Why does that only apply to gym owners and coaches? Not seeing scores (that we know you have) only adds to speculation and drama from the parents.

BTW: Our gym does not normally share scoresheets, but it also isn't a heavily guarded secret. if someone wants to understand, coaches are usually willing to discuss it.

 

[SarahS]

My parents are concerned about the actual score the teams get, not just their placement. I (as a coach) understand that scores can vary because the scoresheet is subjective, but I really don't like how subjective difficulty is. It would be different if it was a point or two difference between competitions, but it's been as much as 5 for my own teams I know of another gym who has had scores vary by 7 points.

I always stress to the kids when we make goals that we don't stress scores, we only stress hitting zero and doing that cleanly because that's all we have control over. But that's hard to explain to parents that don't understand the scoresheet, and they don't really need to understand them and they shouldn't have to.

And overall, I have thought that our placements were correct. There was one competition where I didn't agree with a placement, but that team ended up with a d1 summit bid that weekend so I was more ok with how it turned out.

And don't get me started on the point ranges. It is almost impossible to NOT get in the high range for stunts because it's a full point, while the average and below categories are only half a point. I genuinely don't think I've seen a team that hasn't scored in the high range for their stunts/pyramid all season. The inconsistency in that alone really bothers me and has bothered me since the score sheets were first posted. The ranges should all be the same so that they are weighted properly. I'm fine with the high range being one point, but the low and average ranges should be a full point too.


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Feel free to use my answer to explain scoring to parents But seriously, if you stress your goals an how the kids are hitting them, and that numerical scores in cheer aren't the same as in, say, basketball, generally parents will understand.

As to your other thoughts, why would the mid range be a full point when you have to do *specifically* three level appropriate skills and the low range be a full point when you have to do *specifically* two level appropriate skills, while the high range is *at least* four level appropriate skills? It makes sense to me as-is, but maybe that's just me.

And I have seen many times where teams did not perform four level appropriate skills in stunts or four LAS plus two structures in pyramid - this happens most often when teams have stunt falls or legalities such that they don't hit the "most" number required to count as a LAS and pyramid falls such that either skills don't go up as planned or structures don't hit. Yes, generally, most teams are in the high range, but mid/low/below range scores do happen as well.

Upon a re-read, I'm afraid the tone of my post may seem harsh or critical - it is definitely not intended to be that way. It is clear that you have a good understanding of the score sheet and are doing a great job with your kids. I really appreciate your perspective on this; thanks for taking the time to respond to my posts.

 

[TheVipersMom]

Educated parents make a gym better IMO. I hear complaints about lack of transparency all the time. Why does that only apply to gym owners and coaches? Not seeing scores (that we know you have) only adds to speculation and drama from the parents.

Agreed, we are given all scores and allowed to see scoresheets. The score is usually texted out. Usually after our first team goes and we get a score we all know how we are being scored at that comp.


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[omgitssydthekid]

Feel free to use my answer to explain scoring to parents But seriously, if you stress your goals an how the kids are hitting them, and that numerical scores in cheer aren't the same as in, say, basketball, generally parents will understand.

As to your other thoughts, why would the mid range be a full point when you have to do *specifically* three level appropriate skills and the low range be a full point when you have to do *specifically* two level appropriate skills, while the high range is *at least* four level appropriate skills? It makes sense to me as-is, but maybe that's just me.

And I have seen many times where teams did not perform four level appropriate skills in stunts or four LAS plus two structures in pyramid - this happens most often when teams have stunt falls or legalities such that they don't hit the "most" number required to count as a LAS and pyramid falls such that either skills don't go up as planned or structures don't hit. Yes, generally, most teams are in the high range, but mid/low/below range scores do happen as well.

Upon a re-read, I'm afraid the tone of my post may seem harsh or critical - it is definitely not intended to be that way. It is clear that you have a good understanding of the score sheet and are doing a great job with your kids. I really appreciate your perspective on this; thanks for taking the time to respond to my posts.

Oh I don't think you're being critical, it's good to hear other perspectives on the same topic since I mainly talk to the same coaches on this issue and we tend to share the same views.




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[cheer25mom]

I avoid it whenever it is possible [emoji16] sometimes the competition will post them so it is unavoidable at that point haha. However I would never go over scoresheets with parents. I could literally have a team score a 99/100 and still wouldn't want to go over my scoresheets with parents. Not because of anything bad with my parents, they're awesome. But just because of how the scoresheet is set up because it is so subjective and varies so much from competition to competition.


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this is the way to build even more mistrust and set yourself up for being questioned about the scores. Our gym doesn't sit down after every competiton and go over score sheets with parents like they do with athletes, but there are 3-4 parent meetings a year where how we have been scoring and what is being done to improve scores is discussed. It used to be that we were not allowed to even know the score if the EP didn't post and no discussion was ever had about scoring. A certain group of parents were constantly second guessing the coaches, griping about placements ect. I find that the current setup leads to a lot less parent drama.

 

[omgitssydthekid]

Educated parents make a gym better IMO. I hear complaints about lack of transparency all the time. Why does that only apply to gym owners and coaches? Not seeing scores (that we know you have) only adds to speculation and drama from the parents.

BTW: Our gym does not normally share scoresheets, but it also isn't a heavily guarded secret. if someone wants to understand, coaches are usually willing to discuss it.

Our scoresheets aren't a heavily guarded secret either. As a coach, I prefer to keep them between staff and the athletes. If the parents have questions, I'm always available to answer those questions. However, I've never had parents ask for specifics (such as a specific technique or difficulty score). If parents ask me what the team scored, I'll tell them. And again, this isn't because I'm ashamed of how my teams place or score. I'm very proud of the routines I've put out on the floor, especially this season and their placements have reflected their hard work. However, maybe my parents would be requesting more specifics of the teams weren't having a successful season.

I share my scoresheets with other coaches from different gyms all the time. It benefits both gyms to see how other teams are getting scored and what comments are being made.

I definitely understand what you're saying.


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[omgitssydthekid]

this is the way to build even more mistrust and set yourself up for being questioned about the scores. Our gym doesn't sit down after every competiton and go over score sheets with parents like they do with athletes, but there are 3-4 parent meetings a year where how we have been scoring and what is being done to improve scores is discussed. It used to be that we were not allowed to even know the score if the EP didn't post and no discussion was ever had about scoring. A certain group of parents were constantly second guessing the coaches, griping about placements ect. I find that the current setup leads to a lot less parent drama.

This makes sense to me, and as I just posted, I'll definitely discuss things with parents if I'm asked. But I don't really ever get asked beyond their actual score.


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[tumbleyoda]

As for the code of points, I am not against it in theory. I do think that it would be very difficult to create and implement, and I also think that secondary and tertiary effects of the implementation of such need to be considered (possible stifling of creativity - why do innovative skills that are not listed in the CoP?; possible increased risk to participants, by having athletes perform skills to "max out" that they may not be prepared for, as seen this year with the implementation of elite skills; possible effect being that the score sheet becomes entirely subjective if everyone has the exact same amount of objective difficulty skills, so the only differentiators are subjective creativity and technique scores; etc).

While there are issues, the outcome would be far better for the sport IMO. Stifling creativity hasn't really happened in gymnastics and power tumbling where there are codes. Those that are capable of doing more, do so. Those that aren't know where they will be at least difficulty wise and if implemented with good technique can beat higher skilled competitors. The red herring is that people think gyms or coaches are complaining about winning. When in reality they want to know where they stand without spending thousands of dollars to get a try again next week answer.

For those who say we don't want to be like gymnastics, we are already down that track The way that you must max a scoresheet out to even have a competitive chance dictates who you put on your team. Where in the past you could have a member that didn't tumble, dance, stunt, or jump well, now it hurts your team. So those kids are either getting dropped to lower teams or are left off teams altogether. My daughter who is coaching now would of never stuck in the sport by today's standards as she took forever to get her tumbling skills to match everything else.

 

[uhhlyssa01]

I think it's easy for scores to vary more this year because the ranges are so much wider. With the high range of difficulty going from 0.4 to a whole point, that goes from 1.6 points of variance (stunt diff, pyr diff, standing diff, running diff) to 4 points. Technique is now out of 2 whole points, which is at least double. All those factors can make a routine's score fluctuate so much from event to event. So if you go up or down 0.1 or 0.2 points in each category, than all of a sudden your at a much different score than you were the previous weekend. Unless we somehow train every judge to think the EXACT same way or regionalize judges so the same judges are scoring at all the same local events every weekend, each judge is going to give some variance in how tough or giving they are in the scores they give out. I don't like the idea of telling judges to score each skill a certain way, because once coaches figure that out, we'll end up back at compulsory routines because everyone will be doing the same thing because they want to max out.

It seems this year, more than ever, that the cleanest teams are winning, even if they aren't the most difficult, which could be due to technique having a 2 pt range, they can separate themselves so much more? Idk.

I don't think the scoring system is perfect by any means. I think as long as teams are placing where they should week in and week out, that's what should be happening. I think this year's scoring system has good intentions, and the only way it will get better is to not keep drastically changing it ever year. I say keep it and tweak anything that needs to be tweaked over the summer, and continue to train judges until they really get it.

 

[Official OWECheer]

It has and it has been the experience of many. I have coached or worked with cheer in three states and seen it in all three. Judging is hard. I know I was a gymnastic judge for years. I respect what cheer judges do and would never try to do it. Unfortunately when judges or Ep's tell you they cant correct their errors because it will not be fair to one team and basically tell the team that was scored wrong our fault but so what, then that is what is aggravating. I also know that most judges are also fans of the sport. Which is wonderful, but on that weekend they are judging, they must put that aside and get it right. Do most do that? I am sure they endeavor to. But there are still issues.

I am in the minority on this but I would like a code of points for cheer. Tell me what the skill is worth. Then I know what I am dealing with. Then if judges take the appropriate technique deductions across the board on every team regardless to name, branding, etc., there should be little issue. It removes the what they want to see vs what the teams can actually perform that is truly level appropriate. There is no reason IMO a crappy whip thru to low height piked over layout should score higher than a head height front thru to head height layout. None. A BHS with no hands is not a whip, yet the technique points are not taken on it. For a couple of years the whip is seen as a true Level 4 skill even if thrown with horrible technique whereas the front tuck is seen as a level 3 skill. So now I have to violate proper tumbling progressions to teach a whip before a full in order to score decently because a pass that is a level 4 pass doesn't get the same credit as a bad technique level 4 pass. Because that is what they want to see but it is not codified anywhere as truly a higher skill set than a front thru.

So this is an area we just take a hit on because I refuse to jack up a kids knees, ankles and wrists as well in teaching a skill before its the right time. If any of our level 4 throw a whip you better believe they already have a full and understand the difference in setting for each skill. Because I wont allow it otherwise.

Not to mention that we can watch teams land pass after pass with their chests down, knees seriously bent, feet not together, etc. but they can get a perfect tumbling score as long as everybody lands without nearly dying.

While there are issues, the outcome would be far better for the sport IMO. Stifling creativity hasn't really happened in gymnastics and power tumbling where there are codes. Those that are capable of doing more, do so. Those that aren't know where they will be at least difficulty wise and if implemented with good technique can beat higher skilled competitors. The red herring is that people think gyms or coaches are complaining about winning. When in reality they want to know where they stand without spending thousands of dollars to get a try again next week answer.

For those who say we don't want to be like gymnastics, we are already down that track The way that you must max a scoresheet out to even have a competitive chance dictates who you put on your team. Where in the past you could have a member that didn't tumble, dance, stunt, or jump well, now it hurts your team. So those kids are either getting dropped to lower teams or are left off teams altogether. My daughter who is coaching now would of never stuck in the sport by today's standards as she took forever to get her tumbling skills to match everything else.

 

[Official OWECheer]

I think it's easy for scores to vary more this year because the ranges are so much wider. With the high range of difficulty going from 0.4 to a whole point, that goes from 1.6 points of variance (stunt diff, pyr diff, standing diff, running diff) to 4 points. Technique is now out of 2 whole points, which is at least double. All those factors can make a routine's score fluctuate so much from event to event. So if you go up or down 0.1 or 0.2 points in each category, than all of a sudden your at a much different score than you were the previous weekend. Unless we somehow train every judge to think the EXACT same way or regionalize judges so the same judges are scoring at all the same local events every weekend, each judge is going to give some variance in how tough or giving they are in the scores they give out. I don't like the idea of telling judges to score each skill a certain way, because once coaches figure that out, we'll end up back at compulsory routines because everyone will be doing the same thing because they want to max out.

It seems this year, more than ever, that the cleanest teams are winning, even if they aren't the most difficult, which could be due to technique having a 2 pt range, they can separate themselves so much more? Idk.

I don't think the scoring system is perfect by any means. I think as long as teams are placing where they should week in and week out, that's what should be happening. I think this year's scoring system has good intentions, and the only way it will get better is to not keep drastically changing it ever year. I say keep it and tweak anything that needs to be tweaked over the summer, and continue to train judges until they really get it.

I don't think it's so much a matter of teaching every judge to think the same way as it is a matter of allowing every single one of them to express their thoughts in one language: point code.

Look at this: https://usagym.org/PDFs/T&T/Junior Olympics/TR_errata_12-09.pdf

It's a sheet of tumbling deductions created by the USAG. Every possible mistake is accounted for and assigned a value. No matter what subjective feelings a judge might have about a skill (or a series of skills), they can only use the point code to communicate what they see. They can't (as far as I know) just add or remove points because they feel like doing so.