All-Star Comparative Scoring

[TheVipersMom]

As I mentioned in the other thread ....
I don't understand this. They aren't saying what they want changed or what they want it to be changed to. I think they are going to get a rash decision and not be happy with the changes still. I still haven't seen it end badly. Not at all the competitions we have been too.

I felt like the placements were right, I felt like the scores were close to accurate ... Well as accurate as they can be im not a judge. I felt like when we were much better off than the team the score was indicative of that and I feel like when we were only slightly better than the team the scores were indicative of that. Our score has been consistent across the board too. Although they weren't saying that it would be because it is "comparative" but we have only scored in the 96s or 97s and we have had some type of issues but consistently score around the same and we perform a section because that score has went up.

I think I'm a+ with this scoring as I can get it right everytime and I understand it. I haven't questioned or been unsure of any of the scores we were given this year. So maybe that's why I don't understand why everyone hates it so bad!

I hope it is not changed!

 

[flcheermom]

I am rusty on my knowledge so sorry if this has been answered or is common sense - but the comparative scoring is for all divisions, including international? And is basically a Varsity scoresheet? or all brands? Thanks - going to a few comps so trying to get prepared somewhat.

 

[luv2cheer92]

As I mentioned in the other thread ....
I don't understand this. They aren't saying what they want changed or what they want it to be changed to. I think they are going to get a rash decision and not be happy with the changes still. I still haven't seen it end badly. Not at all the competitions we have been too.

I felt like the placements were right, I felt like the scores were close to accurate ... Well as accurate as they can be im not a judge. I felt like when we were much better off than the team the score was indicative of that and I feel like when we were only slightly better than the team the scores were indicative of that. Our score has been consistent across the board too. Although they weren't saying that it would be because it is "comparative" but we have only scored in the 96s or 97s and we have had some type of issues but consistently score around the same and we perform a section because that score has went up.

I think I'm a+ with this scoring as I can get it right everytime and I understand it. I haven't questioned or been unsure of any of the scores we were given this year. So maybe that's why I don't understand why everyone hates it so bad!

I hope it is not changed!

I agree, I think as long as the placements are right, which from what I have seen has mostly been the case, then that's what matters most. The only thing I think this is affecting is giving out bids to Summit/Worlds when you have to compare scores between divisions, which doesn't always work well with this type of scoring system.

 

[TheVipersMom]

I agree, I think as long as the placements are right, which from what I have seen has mostly been the case, then that's what matters most. The only thing I think this is affecting is giving out bids to Summit/Worlds when you have to compare scores between divisions, which doesn't always work well with this type of scoring system.

I don't think it is effecting summit bids at all.

In previous years they would say they are giving it to the highest perfection score... Since each level was worth different points when they were converted that technically mean a deduction to a level 2 team or 1 team hurt them more than a deduction to a level 4 or 5 team.

Because 1 point fall out of 64? (Is that what level 2 possible points was last year .: 64 ? I didn't remember) is a higher percentage of the score

Than a 1 point deduction to a team with a possible 72 point score?? I think that was level 3.. Anyways what im saying is it made it more difficult because they were being effected more negatively and I think the bids went to the wrong teams more last year than anything I have seen this year.

I feel like they are so much more close to accurate and we had 4 teams get bids at the last comp and I felt like the paids went to the right ones and the at large bids went to the correct ones and I don't think anyone there thought our teams didn't deserve those bids in each level.

Ehh idk

But I see more issues with last year's than I do this year's! I think they are definitely going in the right direction. Sure it isn't perfect but it's much better!!!

 

[12stepCheermom]

I don't know where I got this impression, but I thought this comparative scoring issue we're discussing was only going on in the worlds divisions because it's the worlds scoresheet they're using a bid competitions now (which used to be you only saw the worlds scoresheet AT Worlds). So this comparative scoresheet discussion (and debacle) doesn't apply to any lower level teams since they are on that respective EP's standard scoresheet.

Am I totally off on that? Has the entire level 1-5 gone to a universal scoresheet built like the comparative worlds one?

Do I need more coffee? Or cranberry?

 

[retiredl5cheer]

Petition Started Urging Change to Varsity Scoring System - CHEERdaily.com

What do you guys think about this?

There's a TON of commentary behind this in the ASGA coaches Facebook group. It was started after many many people spoke against the new scoring system.

It makes sense from a parent's POV as long as the rankings are correct. However, it's much more difficult for the choreographer and coach. The hardest thing about the new scoring system is that scores no longer mean anything from event to event. It is next to impossible for coaches to create a routine that will hit the score sheet well, because the scoresheet is essentially in the minds of that judging panel that day. As a coach, I evaluate my scoresheets after each competition to understand where we can improve. With this scoring, you can't do that. The scores are meaningless because they're in comparison to your competitors, but you don't compete against the same teams every competition. There's no way to track your improvement over the season, or even from one competition to the next.

ETA: I currently have no dog in this fight. However, I can understand the frustration that coaches are faced with this year. They can't interpret their scores because everything is comparative, and when challenging scores, they're faced judges that are able to back up their scores with little to no reasoning, just personal opinion.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

I don't know where I got this impression, but I thought this comparative scoring issue we're discussing was only going on in the worlds divisions because it's the worlds scoresheet they're using a bid competitions now (which used to be you only saw the worlds scoresheet AT Worlds). So this comparative scoresheet discussion (and debacle) doesn't apply to any lower level teams since they are on that respective EP's standard scoresheet.

Am I totally off on that? Has the entire level 1-5 gone to a universal scoresheet built like the comparative worlds one?

Do I need more coffee? Or cranberry?

No and yes. The Universal scoresheet is only for Worlds. That's the comparative one you're thinking of. However, the Unified Scoresheet is being used in a similar manner, in which scores within ranges are comparative and highly dependent on what that specific judging panel thinks is most difficult, most visually appealing, most creative.

For example, on Varsity's version of the Unified system, stunts have a 15 point value. 9 points are placed on difficulty, 5 on creativity, and 1 on technique. (See this doc: http://register.varsity.com/VAS/USS Master Score Sheet.pdf) However, the lowest you can score on stunts is a 7.5 and the lowest on creativity a 4, so it's really only 3.5 points that you can earn (1.5 difficulty, 1 technique, 1 creativity). (http://register.varsity.com/VAS/2014-15-Score-Grids.pdf) Out of those, 2.5 are 100% subjective. What is a coach supposed to do with that?

Also, sorry for the double post.

ETA: I currently have no dog in this fight. However, I can understand the frustration that coaches are faced with this year. They can't interpret their scores because everything is comparative, and when challenging scores, they're faced judges that are able to back up their scores with little to no reasoning, just personal opinion.

 

[omgitssydthekid]

There's a TON of commentary behind this in the ASGA coaches Facebook group. It was started after many many people spoke against the new scoring system.

It makes sense from a parent's POV as long as the rankings are correct. However, it's much more difficult for the choreographer and coach. The hardest thing about the new scoring system is that scores no longer mean anything from event to event. It is next to impossible for coaches to create a routine that will hit the score sheet well, because the scoresheet is essentially in the minds of that judging panel that day. As a coach, I evaluate my scoresheets after each competition to understand where we can improve. With this scoring, you can't do that. The scores are meaningless because they're in comparison to your competitors, but you don't compete against the same teams every competition. There's no way to track your improvement over the season, or even from one competition to the next.

ETA: I currently have no dog in this fight. However, I can understand the frustration that coaches are faced with this year. They can't interpret their scores because everything is comparative, and when challenging scores, they're faced judges that are able to back up their scores with little to no reasoning, just personal opinion.

Very well said. I was trying to figure out a way to say this. It is impossible to create a routine that hits the scoresheet because you don't compete against the scoresheet anymore. And what irritates me the most is that judges are so inconsistent from competition to competition. I questioned one of the score check workers at AB Nationals in early December and was told that it wasn't their problem because they hire their judges from some list the USASF has. Well actually it is your problem because it reflects poorly on your brand.

A code of points is needed. Everything is too subjective now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[quitthedrama]

There's a TON of commentary behind this in the ASGA coaches Facebook group. It was started after many many people spoke against the new scoring system.

It makes sense from a parent's POV as long as the rankings are correct. However, it's much more difficult for the choreographer and coach. The hardest thing about the new scoring system is that scores no longer mean anything from event to event. It is next to impossible for coaches to create a routine that will hit the score sheet well, because the scoresheet is essentially in the minds of that judging panel that day. As a coach, I evaluate my scoresheets after each competition to understand where we can improve. With this scoring, you can't do that. The scores are meaningless because they're in comparison to your competitors, but you don't compete against the same teams every competition. There's no way to track your improvement over the season, or even from one competition to the next.

ETA: I currently have no dog in this fight. However, I can understand the frustration that coaches are faced with this year. They can't interpret their scores because everything is comparative, and when challenging scores, they're faced judges that are able to back up their scores with little to no reasoning, just personal opinion.

I can assure you from a parent's POV it doesn't make sense even if the rankings are correct, and if there are 40 teams vying for a bid I'm not sure correct rankings are possible - extremely difficult at best. With the thousands of dollars spent on this "sport" every year I expect the scoring system to be understandable, fair, useful, and consistent. If coaches are having an issue with the system, then their ability to coach effectively is compromised. This is no bueno to everyone involved.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

I can assure you from a parent's POV it doesn't make sense even if the rankings are correct, and if there are 40 teams vying for a bid I'm not sure correct rankings are possible - extremely difficult at best. With the thousands of dollars spent on this "sport" every year I expect the scoring system to be understandable, fair, useful, and consistent. If coaches are having an issue with the system, then their ability to coach effectively is compromised. This is no bueno to everyone involved.

I 100% agree.

 

[flcheermom]

I am still lost lol. I used to be in the loop with the scoresheets and really tried to understand, and usually I did a good job - but now being in the International division I haven't really looked. I still enjoy and follow the sport, but I feel lost now.

 

[luv2cheer92]

There's a TON of commentary behind this in the ASGA coaches Facebook group. It was started after many many people spoke against the new scoring system.

It makes sense from a parent's POV as long as the rankings are correct. However, it's much more difficult for the choreographer and coach. The hardest thing about the new scoring system is that scores no longer mean anything from event to event. It is next to impossible for coaches to create a routine that will hit the score sheet well, because the scoresheet is essentially in the minds of that judging panel that day. As a coach, I evaluate my scoresheets after each competition to understand where we can improve. With this scoring, you can't do that. The scores are meaningless because they're in comparison to your competitors, but you don't compete against the same teams every competition. There's no way to track your improvement over the season, or even from one competition to the next.

ETA: I currently have no dog in this fight. However, I can understand the frustration that coaches are faced with this year. They can't interpret their scores because everything is comparative, and when challenging scores, they're faced judges that are able to back up their scores with little to no reasoning, just personal opinion.

Thanks for this! I didn't even think about it from a coach's perspective since I've never been in that position. I really like hearing the different POVs opposed to just being a former athlete/spectator.

 

[NJ Coach]

@retiredl5cheer said much of what I was going to say. While getting the rankings correct is important, my scores are just as important to me. I use those scores to build my routine throughout the season. On a true comparative score sheet, my scores mean nothing going forward. I don't know what areas of my routine need fixing because my score is based on who I competed against and not what I competed. That doesn't prepare me or my team for the next competition.

I'd like to go back to a rubric based scoresheet, but I like that this scoresheet has wider ranges

 

[Teacher Mom]

@retiredl5cheer said much of what I was going to say. While getting the rankings correct is important, my scores are just as important to me. I use those scores to build my routine throughout the season. On a true comparative score sheet, my scores mean nothing going forward. I don't know what areas of my routine need fixing because my score is based on who I competed against and not what I competed. That doesn't prepare me or my team for the next competition.

I'd like to go back to a rubric based scoresheet, but I like that this scoresheet has wider ranges

Worlds teams should not use comparative scoring! They need to be judged like they'll be at Worlds

 

[retiredl5cheer]

Worlds teams should not use comparative scoring! They need to be judged like they'll be at Worlds

They're judged on a comparative scoresheet at Worlds. In fact, I believe Worlds teams are competing on the Worlds scoresheet this year.

http://register.varsity.com/VAS/USS Worlds Divisions Rubrics.pdf
http://usasf.net.ismmedia.com/ISM2/...orlds_14_scoresheet-pack_All-Girl-L5-Club.pdf

They are quite similar.