All-Star Inconsistent Judging

[BlueCat]

I almost don't want the judges being able to rewind. I think they should have to judge from first impression not watch it 8 times. The time rewinding should be allowed is for deductions in my opinion.

I want them to do whatever they can to get it right & be more accurate. If that means watching it again, then I am fine with that.

I also think that deduction/legality judges should be able to sit right beside the mat if that would give them a better view of what they are looking for.

 

[BlueCat]

HA HA HA.....good money? No one judges for the money! Typically it's from $100-$200 per day.
Most of the big events will have 2 panels per floor (so you judge team 1, the other panel judges team 2, then you judge team 3...etc)

Assuming they are of good quality, judges are typically WAY underpaid.

 

[stuntaholic]

I think if your looking at whether they are underpaid or not depends on how you look at it and depends on the length of the day. But from my point of view you get to sit there and watch cheerleading all day. And if you don't enjoy watching cheerleading why would you be a judge.

 

[yojaehs]

Prob not gonna be the popular one here but... I'm sorry but I don't feel sorry for the judges or the EP's for that matter, IT's YOUR JOB!!! It's the EP's job to find QUALITY judges and its the JUDGES responsibility to get it right watching it IN the VENUE, LIVE! I personally believe that video review should ONLY be used in case of legality/safety violation, NOT to see whether or not team A did 15 or 16 standing tucks. I think its a coaches/choreographers responsibility to make the routine look a certain way and showcase a routine that has "squad" skills and make it look like "squad" if you don't have the skills. Why should a judge get the chance to make up for their mistakes? Yes, mistakes happen and I am 100% in favor of ZERO mistakes, but video review bc a judge is tired, give me a break. Judges, DO YOUR JOB, if you wanna complain about it then don't judge, very easy solution.

Yes, I have judged very high level competitions with various age/level teams. I agree its a long day but its a long day as a coach. I don't get to say (as a coach), you know what I'm tired and this music is loud can you just watch our video from a few weeks ago, my kids are tired and don't feel like DOING THEIR JOB today so please let me sit on my butt. Nope I don't and if I did I would hope others would laugh in my face, so to those whining, I'm laughing in your face.

 

[CGAcheer]

I think the idea of inputting scores directly into a computer would be great. IPADS are not that expensive. Make a program that doesn't allow out of range scores and that tabulates, avg scores and makes a list for awards .
Score sheets could be automatically inputted and sent to the coaches, no copying, easy to track, no paper waste. Woohoo
EPs could then pull up judges averages and compare to see if some are being too lenient or too harsh. It would just be a couple of clicks on a computer program, then if there are questions they could review the performance and talk to the judge about what they expect- feedback is crucial if you want them to change. Right now the judges don't know if they are consistent with the rest of the panel.
I also like the idea of judges watching a tv feed from other room that they could rewind. Sometimes they are impacted by crowds reaction.

I would think that just a line without numbers on the ipad would be great.
craptastic Avg Amazing
then they pick where on the line the team fell then the computer can then calculate the 9.33274 that the team should get rather than the 9.0 or 9.5 that they would get if they were having to pick numbers.

Then whether its 1-25 or 1-63 its on the same numberless scale for the judges or if you want to have level 1 be 4-5 and level 5 be 9 to 10 the numberless scale is applied the same way.

Then you just have to figure out what is amazing, average and craptastic which shouldn't be too hard, below level skills is more towards the craptastic side, regular level skills are average, and pushing the legal boundaries etc gets you in the amazing range

 

[BlueCat]

Prob not gonna be the popular one here but... I'm sorry but I don't feel sorry for the judges or the EP's for that matter, IT's YOUR JOB!!! It's the EP's job to find QUALITY judges and its the JUDGES responsibility to get it right watching it IN the VENUE, LIVE! I personally believe that video review should ONLY be used in case of legality/safety violation, NOT to see whether or not team A did 15 or 16 standing tucks. I think its a coaches/choreographers responsibility to make the routine look a certain way and showcase a routine that has "squad" skills and make it look like "squad" if you don't have the skills. Why should a judge get the chance to make up for their mistakes? Yes, mistakes happen and I am 100% in favor of ZERO mistakes, but video review bc a judge is tired, give me a break. Judges, DO YOUR JOB, if you wanna complain about it then don't judge, very easy solution.

I don't generally feel sorry for judges or EPs - I do feel sorry for the athletes that are affected by mistakes that are made. For every team that "accidentally" wins because a judge was looking in the wrong place to see a mistake, there is another team that erroneously lost because of that same judge mistake.

I much more concerned that the results are correct than if the judge is tired or not. What is the downside to using replay or other techniques if it makes it more likely to see the correct team win a division? Why shouldn't an EP/judge use every available option to make sure that the teams are scored fairly and accurately? The athletes work too hard to leave it up to chance any more than we have to.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Does any competition company have the judges in a different room? I think it's wrong to ask a judge to sit there all day, judging from Tiny level 1 to Senior 5. I'm guessing they don't have seperate judging panels due to the cost but this seems unreasonable for some of the larger comps. Do judges make good money?

All Star challenege had some panels rotating I believe. So your panel got at least one break from judging during the day.

 

[yojaehs]

I don't generally feel sorry for judges or EPs - I do feel sorry for the athletes that are affected by mistakes that are made. For every team that "accidentally" wins because a judge was looking in the wrong place to see a mistake, there is another team that erroneously lost because of that same judge mistake.

I much more concerned that the results are correct than if the judge is tired or not. What is the downside to using replay or other techniques if it makes it more likely to see the correct team win a division? Why shouldn't an EP/judge use every available option to make sure that the teams are scored fairly and accurately? The athletes work too hard to leave it up to chance any more than we have to.

I agree with you to a point. Its kind of like instant replay in other sports, at what point does it take away from the root of the event!? Being judged in the moment, to me, is the most important thing. The emotion of a routine, the overall appearance of a routine, is truly important. My fear is that during instant replay, or watching and replaying in a room away from the live performance (other than deductions or legalities, which I support 100%), I feel that you lose something. What that "something" is, I'm not 100% sure, but I truly believe that a quality, qualified judge will get it right 99 times out of 100. I feel that with unqualified judges that number is more like 50 out of 100 or heck I'll give you 75 out of 100. 25 mistakes per event is much tougher to deal with than 1. Basically, I feel qualified judges are more important than instant replay. I want the emotion of a routine to mean something, I want the choreographer and coaches hard work to "hide" or "cover" those 5 standing tucks that aren't standing tucks to be rewarded bc they were able to fool the judges (and praise be it to the judges who catch it). Again, I don't feel sorry for judges having to "sit" and watch cheerleading all day, while I'm on my feet, not eating and dealing with late kids, parents asking questions and my own things. WE are paying them, we have put in the work, and they need to do their job. If not, why aren't all competitions just like the "ALL-LEVELS" just send in a video? Because, kids and coaches FEEL the performances put on the floor, the audience roars or says awww or whatever, THAT is important and should be seen first hand, LIVE by the judges, if you need 1,2 or 10 judges to "get it right" then do what it takes.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

I agree with you to a point. Its kind of like instant replay in other sports, at what point does it take away from the root of the event!? Being judged in the moment, to me, is the most important thing. The emotion of a routine, the overall appearance of a routine, is truly important. My fear is that during instant replay, or watching and replaying in a room away from the live performance (other than deductions or legalities, which I support 100%), I feel that you lose something. What that "something" is, I'm not 100% sure, but I truly believe that a quality, qualified judge will get it right 99 times out of 100. I feel that with unqualified judges that number is more like 50 out of 100 or heck I'll give you 75 out of 100. 25 mistakes per event is much tougher to deal with than 1. Basically, I feel qualified judges are more important than instant replay. I want the emotion of a routine to mean something, I want the choreographer and coaches hard work to "hide" or "cover" those 5 standing tucks that aren't standing tucks to be rewarded bc they were able to fool the judges (and praise be it to the judges who catch it). Again, I don't feel sorry for judges having to "sit" and watch cheerleading all day, while I'm on my feet, not eating and dealing with late kids, parents asking questions and my own things. WE are paying them, we have put in the work, and they need to do their job. If not, why aren't all competitions just like the "ALL-LEVELS" just send in a video? Because, kids and coaches FEEL the performances put on the floor, the audience roars or says awww or whatever, THAT is important and should be seen first hand, LIVE by the judges, if you need 1,2 or 10 judges to "get it right" then do what it takes.

I think the opposite of you there. I think our sport needs more concrete things to go off of, like quantity. And you should be rewarded to see how many people did skills. I know JamFest has a quantity score, but im not sure how they actually use it.

So if standing tucks and 2 to tucks are required to max out for the level, then I feel they should be counted via video and scored. It would be a hard score that doesn't taken into account execution etc. So if you have full team tucks and toe touch 2 to layouts, then you should receive the full difficulty score for standing tumbling in level 4. Then let execution be something separate.

 

[yojaehs]

I think the opposite of you there. I think our sport needs more concrete things to go off of, like quantity. And you should be rewarded to see how many people did skills. I know JamFest has a quantity score, but im not sure how they actually use it.

So if standing tucks and 2 to tucks are required to max out for the level, then I feel they should be counted via video and scored. It would be a hard score that doesn't taken into account execution etc. So if you have full team tucks and toe touch 2 to layouts, then you should receive the full difficulty score for standing tumbling in level 4. Then let execution be something separate.

I've had this discussion several times and thought of it many different ways. My opinion on this is scenario 1. I have "squad" standing tucks, or I have whatever the number is to show that I am in the max range, it is MY job to make it simple, easy and clear to see and count. scenario 2. I am short a few skills to get into the "max" range (first I should have chosen my team better, but lets say I have an injury and I am just short) THEN it is my JOB to create a routine that "hides" or gives the appearance that I am now in the range. In EITHER scenario I as a coach have done my job and in EITHER scenario I feel that the judges have one shot bc I as a coach have done my job.

If I have squad skills and they are missed by a judge I feel like I didn't do my job to make formations or whatever easy to see and count and visa versa, either scenario I think tells my point.

 

[BlueCat]

I think the team should get credit for what they actually do, not what it looks like at first glance that they do. I do think that good judges are better at "catching" hidden skills, but it is still mostly luck I think. (Which athlete was the judge actually looking at when 36 people did a squad skill.)

I am all for the "art" of designing a routine to be an important part of the score. However, I think that routine design and choreography should be covered in the the choreography/creativity score, not the tumbling difficulty score. (I also think that the reverse is true - high level skills shouldn't count towards getting you a higher creativity score.)

There should be both objective and subjective categories on a scoresheet. We should strive to find ways to make the scores in both of those areas as accurate and consistent as possible. I do agree that quality judges is the top factor in making that happen.

 

[cupieqt]

I don't generally feel sorry for judges or EPs - I do feel sorry for the athletes that are affected by mistakes that are made. For every team that "accidentally" wins because a judge was looking in the wrong place to see a mistake, there is another team that erroneously lost because of that same judge mistake.

I much more concerned that the results are correct than if the judge is tired or not. What is the downside to using replay or other techniques if it makes it more likely to see the correct team win a division? Why shouldn't an EP/judge use every available option to make sure that the teams are scored fairly and accurately? The athletes work too hard to leave it up to chance any more than we have to.

We are more consistent than lucky, so I'm all for them picking it apart if that's what it takes!

 

[yojaehs]

I've said my piece, but I think we can all agree something needs to improve.

 

[cupieqt]

I've had this discussion several times and thought of it many different ways. My opinion on this is scenario 1. I have "squad" standing tucks, or I have whatever the number is to show that I am in the max range, it is MY job to make it simple, easy and clear to see and count. scenario 2. I am short a few skills to get into the "max" range (first I should have chosen my team better, but lets say I have an injury and I am just short) THEN it is my JOB to create a routine that "hides" or gives the appearance that I am now in the range. In EITHER scenario I as a coach have done my job and in EITHER scenario I feel that the judges have one shot bc I as a coach have done my job.

If I have squad skills and they are missed by a judge I feel like I didn't do my job to make formations or whatever easy to see and count and visa versa, either scenario I think tells my point.

I think you have some excellent points because I agree the first impression of a routine should be scored. But when you get down to it and start "bean counting" it would help judges seperate those close calls. At that point, you KNOW it wasn't just an any given Sunday situation. I want all of our hard work to be rewarded appropriately. I would appreciate third place a lot more if I knew the judges really took the time to make sure they got it absolutely right (and give me REASONS) rather than feel like we "should have"
won and they were careless. Too many times I leave comps feeling like they just didn't get it (and not only in my teams divisions).
I don't feel sorry for them either. You hit that nail on the head.

 

[PrimeTime]

Imagine how long it would take though for someone to be counting by video individual skills for every single team during a competition? The wait time for awards would be insanely long and at 10-11 at night no one really wants to do the Cupid Shuffle anymore. Yes the events can hire more people to do that and then the competitions fees will be raised so it's something that everyone needs to weigh out I guess. I completely agree that there needs to be an objective and subjective part of the score sheets. There is nothing more frustrating than being at a two day competition and your degree of difficulty is completely different from day one to day two, execution yes but degree of difficulty no.