All-Star Is It The Judges Fault That There Is No Change At The Top

[CCCBeBad]

The answer is no...

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and trying to see where you are coming from..... but then you just showed how uneducated you are..... I have been in more gyms than most as I was in the military and traveled all over the world, and its not the name of the program that matters, its the coach! I have seen teams with less skill win because the coach could read a score sheet and then translate that into a routine that scored well!

 

[12stepCheermom]

Ill admit I was surprised SOT won with a drop, but I wasn't shocked. They were just that good and that perfect everywhere else.


I still would rather work on the universal scoresheets and do the idea of difficulty by video and execution and impression live. Then afterwards release all the scores of every category.

Thank you for this! I think this entire thread would not exist if we had a common scoresheet with standard "raw score" difficulty. Everyone talks about that, but in essence....what is the "raw score" it's still subjective the way our scoring is set up. We should have predetermined "raw scores" for routines so when they barrel out on the floor, with their name scrolling across the bottom of the screen you can also list (like they do in diving) what the routine "raw score" actually is. Then there's no question when a team with a (making up numbers here) raw score of 300 takes the floor and has a fall and the one in second hit clean but everyone knew the "raw score" was a 292 there's no argument.

Why in the world can that not happen?

 

[ASCheerMan]

I love that you brought this team up.
They were amazing and so talented and HIT....so should they have won they obviously had the execution and difficulty but just lacked the "name"....

It wasn't 'the name' they were lacking, it was Tumbling. They had the lowest tumbling score of the entire division and the highest stunt score of the division. So, the fact that there Stunts made up for their deficit in tumbling says they were treated very fairly. Anyone blaming their lack or success on not having the right name is doing themselves a disservice by not being objective enough to see what their areas of potential improvement.

Generally speaking, a gym becomes a big name because they are successful, they don't become successful because they have a big name.

 

[lakerfantlc]

My thought is that if a stunt can kick you to the curb....then let's call it "The World Stunting Championships"

 

[Coach Troy]

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and trying to see where you are coming from..... but then you just showed how uneducated you are..... I have been in more gyms than most as I was in the military and traveled all over the world, and its not the name of the program that matters, its the coach! I have seen teams with less skill win because the coach could read a score sheet and then translate that into a routine that scored well!

Well thanks for being mean.....maybe instead you could read all the posts not just the one you want to use to attack someone's person instead of thier argument.
Great coaches make great teams, smart coaches know the scoring system and adapt but neither of those things insures you will capture the judges choice it just means you will be in a certain range

My argument is that after all of that we are left with an opinion that hasn't changed in a decade.
Next time read.....

 

[Coach Troy]

It wasn't 'the name' they were lacking, it was Tumbling. They had the lowest tumbling score of the entire division and the highest stunt score of the division. So, the fact that there Stunts made up for their deficit in tumbling says they were treated very fairly. Anyone blaming their lack or success on not having the right name is doing themselves a disservice by not being objective enough to see what their areas of potential improvement.

Generally speaking, a gym becomes a big name because they are successful, they don't become successful because they have a big name.

This was not a thread about the pros and cons of a large "name" Not was it a rant against them all of thier success is well deserved and earned.

This is a question of can someone do what these storied programs has done without a change of perspective and opinion on the judging panels

 

[lakerfantlc]

As a roller skater Troy...I think there will always be questions and concerns when humans judge...subjective is in the eye of the beholder... hence the reason many people choose sports that are "judged" by a stop watch Judged sports are always very hard and I swore my kids wouldnt skate...well...they dont...hahahha...the lessons about self satisfaction and self worth are abundant.

 

[alexamarysouza]

 

[OARoyalsbiggestfan]

I love that you brought this team up.
They were amazing and so talented and HIT....so should they have won they obviously had the execution and difficulty but just lacked the "name"....

No they do not hit the score sheet all the way across. If you watch the video they clearly have much less and much less difficult tumbling both running an standing, therefore even their HIT routine was not able to outscore SoT who hits the entire score sheet not just the building and danc and execution. Judges got it right! Think we will be seeing more South Elites in top 3 at Worlds with the new tumbling limitations though!

 

[Coach Troy]

As a roller skater Troy...I think there will always be questions and concerns when humans judge...subjective is in the eye of the beholder... hence the reason many people choose sports that are "judged" by a stop watch Judged sports are always very hard and I swore my kids wouldnt skate...well...they dont...hahahha...the lessons about self satisfaction and self worth are abundant.

Yes I am so very aware of how "in the eye of the beholder" works in our sport. And please let me clarify in no way does my question insinuate that I don't believe in the wonderful things our sport teaches. Just wondering if the success of those icons of the sport ever have the ability to be repeated by someone else. ??

It was great to meet you Sunday!!! Congrats to your athletes and your teams

 

[socratesofcheer]

Just wondering if the success of those icons of the sport ever have the ability to be repeated by someone else. ??

Yes! Green Bay Elite and your program are two that come to mind. Isn't this the first year your program earned a paid bid to worlds and it was at least 2, right?

 

[Coach Troy]

It is my sincere hope that we have the ability to do that, we certainly have the desire as do so as many others do as well ... thus why I asked the question.

 

[cheermommaRN]

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and trying to see where you are coming from..... but then you just showed how uneducated you are..... I have been in more gyms than most as I was in the military and traveled all over the world, and its not the name of the program that matters, its the coach! I have seen teams with less skill win because the coach could read a score sheet and then translate that into a routine that scored well!

I agree...give Brad Vaughn raw talent and he will make a team of stars....he does it every single season. We get kids from all over the DFW area, some of which may have only done rec cheer or smaller programs. They come in having to learn the technique and transitioning that Spirit is known for. Every year the guys put out powerhouse teams. We had a youth 1 with 9 kids on it that regularly served larger teams...none of the little ones had prior cheer experience. My cp's coach had a NCA winning team and it is only his 2nd season coaching...why? Because he was trained by the best.

 

[ztaprincess]

I can name a coach right now that could walk into a gym and make them into national and world champions, James Speed. He gets new talent year after year, his worlds teams are rarely ever filled with the same athletes every year. He takes in athletes who come to Louisville who have never placed in the top 10 at worlds and makes them champions. Of course all the other coaches at Gym Tyme aid in all of that, but it isn't the name that makes these athletes winners it is the coaches who teach them what they need to do and gives them the routines that hit where it counts and brings home the trophies. You can also see that those athletes that James coaches often go on to be coaches at other gyms who win championships because they were taught by some of the best.
I 100% thinks that with the right coaches any team can be a winner.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

This thread seems to migrate around and around through coaching, skills and subjectivity. I would love to have seen some discussion around the original question as to whether having the same judges every year affects the subjective portion of the score and, if the judges are the same year-to-year, whether that portion of the score is really subjective?

I don't recall having ever seen this question and perspective discussed in depth on this board, and I think we've seen the topics of the effects of coaching and skills/execution/difficulty on scoring many times over the years.