All-Star Knowing There Are Illegal Athletes On Your Team

[ztaprincess]

why have rules if so many people are going to slip through the cracks and break them? there seems to be no real penalty at all, so why not? if these international teams are not being disqualified or penalized, i have a feeling its because someone running these events know that they are partially responsible for allowing this to happen by not providing translated copies of rules and age grids and also by not bothering to check the rosters to verify ages.

EXACTLY! I would be fine right now if I could get someone over there to admit to screwing up and they can't fix that problem so they are going to work on making it better. Instead all I got was "well we are more forgiving of International teams." That isn't helping the problem that is saying, "well we make mistakes and instead of correcting them we will continue to make them."

If the ICU can get them rules that they can understand then how is it that the USASF can't do that? Would the ICU be "forgiving" of an International team if they had an athlete that was 14 instead of 15?

Things like this is one reason the USASF and cheer will not be taken seriously. They want respect but they make a joke out of it all with things like this.

 

[Ashley]

the inconsistencies need to be fixed. this is just stupid. there is no other way to put it. the people putting these events together, sending out info, and allowing these teams to register need to fix their system because it sure seems to be a disorganized mess. there has to be a way to fully and accurately relay the guidelines to international teams. the olympics has age guidelines for their competitors and that info somehow manages to get conveyed thoroughly, right?

why have rules if so many people are going to slip through the cracks and break them? there seems to be no real penalty at all, so why not? if these international teams are not being disqualified or penalized, i have a feeling its because someone running these events know that they are partially responsible for allowing this to happen by not providing translated copies of rules and age grids and also by not bothering to check the rosters to verify ages.

Because there is no international governing body. IASF claims to be one, but the ICU competition is not IASF. So the rules for either need to be the more restrictive of the two. But even if that was fixed, until the rest of the world sees IASF as the governing body, nothing will change. A team can compete all season long and then have to change their team or routine for Worlds because the rules and age grid is different than in their governing body.

But if IASF wants to be the governing body internationally, then they have to start accepting input from international teams, they can't just use USASF rules and say he, follow the US rules if you want to compete at worlds. It's not really a world competition as it stands, it's just a competition that international teams can go to if they play by the US rules.

 

[ztaprincess]

Because there is no international governing body. IASF claims to be one, but the ICU competition is not IASF. So the rules for either need to be the more restrictive of the two. But even if that was fixed, until the rest of the world sees IASF as the governing body, nothing will change. A team can compete all season long and then have to change their team or routine for Worlds because the rules and age grid is different than in their governing body.

But if IASF wants to be the governing body internationally, then they have to start accepting input from international teams, they can't just use USASF rules and say he, follow the US rules if you want to compete at worlds. It's not really a world competition as it stands, it's just a competition that international teams can go to if they play by the US rules.

The International community does have International representatives in the USASF. They have a Advisory Board of International members as well as a sanctioning committee. USASF.NET
There are even IASF members on the Rules Committee and Cheerleading Worlds Advisory Board.

 

[Ashley]

The International community does have International representatives in the USASF. They have a Advisory Board of International members as well as a sanctioning committee. USASF.NET
There are even IASF members on the Rules Committee and Cheerleading Worlds Advisory Board.

My point still stands though that unless the rules actually get adopted internationally and unless ICU follows USASF/IASF rules (premier = international level 6, elite = international level 5 for example) we're going to continue to have this problem. Bangkok is going to keep having an illegal number of athletes and keep doing illegal pyramids because this is their only competition where it's illegal. You can keep giving them the deductions, but that might also push them away from returning. Pushing away the best international team isn't really the best way to grow Worlds as a real World Championship event.

 

[ztaprincess]

Got an e-mail back from Jim Chadwick...


"***, thank you for your inquiry and I am going to forward it to Steve Peterson so he can respond directly."

:cow: Can someone please point me in the direction of someone who is going to listen to what I have to say and not keep sending me to the person who doesn't care.

 

[mollymags]

My point still stands though that unless the rules actually get adopted internationally and unless ICU follows USASF/IASF rules (premier = international level 6, elite = international level 5 for example) we're going to continue to have this problem. Bangkok is going to keep having an illegal number of athletes and keep doing illegal pyramids because this is their only competition where it's illegal. You can keep giving them the deductions, but that might also push them away from returning. Pushing away the best international team isn't really the best way to grow Worlds as a real World Championship event.

But allowing teams to break and bend rules isn't the best way to grow a Worlds as a real World Championship, either... at least not a legitimate one.

I agree that we're going to continue seeing issues until the rules are more universal. Maybe that means we need to alter our rules (the ones the American international teams deal with) so they fit more with the ones international teams are dealing with. Something has to be done. All I know is that the more we let it slide, the more it's going to happen. If these teams aren't willing to abide by the rules of this competition, why come?

 

[ztaprincess]

The rules are different for the International teams, but they are different for the US teams as well. At this past worlds they raised the number of boys on the floor because of the International teams that compete at the ICU, but the US teams still had to use the old number of boys at all other competitions. So US teams had to add boys to their routine after getting a bid so that they were on the same playing field that the other teams were on.

I agree that the rules need to be universial, the problem is the international community in many places aren't caught up with the US so the age grid would have to change in the US if we want it to match the other countries. That would mean big changes as far as what ages are allowed on the worlds teams. We have been fighting to get the right age range and that would be a step backwards.

If we are not going to follow the rules for everyone then they need to be gotten rid of. If they aren't going to go by what is in the Worlds Packet then remove it and don't make US athletes sign their name beside it if not all the International teams have to. I don't know any other sport that allows certain teams to bend the rule while others get penalized for it. I would assume that some of the teams at the Olypmics have different age guidlines in their own countries, but they still follow the rules for the Olypmics.

 

[Ashley]

The rules are different for the International teams, but they are different for the US teams as well. At this past worlds they raised the number of boys on the floor because of the International teams that compete at the ICU, but the US teams still had to use the old number of boys at all other competitions. So US teams had to add boys to their routine after getting a bid so that they were on the same playing field that the other teams were on.

They changed that rule for US teams earlier in the season. It wasn't just at Worlds. I'm not sure exactly when the change went through, but I'm pretty sure we were allowed 15 boys as early as January.

For what it's worth, I don't mean to imply that international teams should get a pass, but I can see why IASF goes a little easier on the international teams. USASF probably wouldn't use the resources to go after a team that didn't make it out of prelims that had an illegal athlete either.

 

[ztaprincess]

"NOTE: The USASF/IASF recognizes that teams and event producers from the U.S.A. must follow the current 2011-12 USASF Age Grid and Guidelines at all Worlds Bid Qualifiers. However teams from the U.S.A. receiving Cheerleading Worlds bids and attending the 2012 Cheerleading Worlds may use substitution/alternate athletes to form a team that matches the new guidelines listed above for the 2012 Cheerleading Worlds for these select divisions. Of course, those athletes would have to follow the same eligibility, substitution and alternate guidelines for The Worlds, including the guidelines requiring a Release Waiver. Again these new guidelines only impact those teams competing in the 2012 Cheerleading Worlds in the all International Open Levels 5 & 6 divisions."

Doesn't this mean that the US teams had to follow the regular age grid at all competitions except for worlds? Therefore you had to be 17 by August 30, 2012. If that is the case then this again is a rule that was made just for worlds, just for the International teams.

 

[Kelli Nicole]

I agree with you wholeheartedly that everybody needs to follow the rules. And I am begging for one set of clear, concise rules that is enforceable and given to us in a timely manner please. This is not the case with the IASF, USASF and ICU and has not been since the start.

Regarding the Bullet team, this is not what the coach and I discussed. Not even close. The girl was indeed Canadian and she was actually reported as underage by her former team (not me). But she was on the ICU floor and therefore, I assume believed she was able to be on the floor on the USASF. Us international teams "hear" a lot of: "that rule is only for the US", and many coaches take that statement at face value only to be chastised later.

The issue is with the organizing body not being clear for all involved. Issues like this will continue to arise unless there is alignment within these three groups.

She did not compete with the ICU German team. Sorry, but that is incorrect information.

 

[Kelli Nicole]

I understand what you are saying, and I am empathetic to the situation. However, the root cause of this issue is the lack of clear and concise rules. While you in the US see these competitions as two distinct events (ICU and USASF/IASF) the rest of the world does not. And it is not "sold" to us as two separate events. There is overlap between the two, and its been designed that way (or they wouldn't hold them on the same weekend). Understand that the issue here is with a lack of clarity. This is why the USASF is "easier" on International teams...because the lack of clarity is ultimately the cause of these issues (certainly in Thailand's case).

I am not defending cheaters, if you knowingly break the rules you should be held accountable. But I will tell you from the perspective of an International team and an ICU team that there is an issue with understanding (and I speak the language). And there is no real distinction between these two events that has caused chaos in the past, it will continue to do so until everybody's rules are aligned.

As far as I know, in Germany there IS a distinction.

The national organization sends teams to the ICU (national champs and a coed team for which you have to tryout).

The EP in Germany (different company) sends teams who wons bids to the USASF/IASF.

While some of the kids from FTG tryout out and make the coed team which starts at the ICU, they compete at both. But not all. The athlete that "caused" this discussion is from Canada, competed in Canada and was not on the ICU German team. She also knows her cheer stuff.

 

[Kelli Nicole]

My point still stands though that unless the rules actually get adopted internationally and unless ICU follows USASF/IASF rules (premier = international level 6, elite = international level 5 for example) we're going to continue to have this problem. Bangkok is going to keep having an illegal number of athletes and keep doing illegal pyramids because this is their only competition where it's illegal. You can keep giving them the deductions, but that might also push them away from returning. Pushing away the best international team isn't really the best way to grow Worlds as a real World Championship event.

That has to do with the Asian/European organization that lies underneath. There is ECU (part of ICU) and then there is sthe ECA (part of ICA). As far as I know, one of Germany's national organizations belongs to ECU/ICU and the other to ECA/ICA. Chinese Taipei belongs to ICA (what whichever Asian equivalent to ECA) - therefore completely different rules when they come to Worlds.

ECU has the same rules as ICU (which are similar to IASF, not exactly 100% the same, but similar). I asked a couple people in Germany, and apparently the German organization that belongs to ECU/ICU will be changing its age grid to match up to the ECU rules.

 

[Emily]

That has to do with the Asian/European organization that lies underneath. There is ECU (part of ICU) and then there is sthe ECA (part of ICA). As far as I know, one of Germany's national organizations belongs to ECU/ICU and the other to ECA/ICA. Chinese Taipei belongs to ICA (what whichever Asian equivalent to ECA) - therefore completely different rules when they come to Worlds.

ECU has the same rules as ICU (which are similar to IASF, not exactly 100% the same, but similar). I asked a couple people in Germany, and apparently the German organization that belongs to ECU/ICU will be changing its age grid to match up to the ECU rules.

The organization isn't called ICA but IFC .

 

[Kelli Nicole]

The organization isn't called ICA but IFC .

Haha, thanks, it was something like that.

 

[CheerBank]

Just wanted to give an update.
Heard today that the team that I knew went to Worlds this year with an athlete who turned 12 one month before Worlds was in fact disqualified the moment that athlete set foot on the mat, so it seems that the USASF does follow through with investigating claims of illegal athletes with the appropriate supporting proof. Apparently the USASF warned them before they got to Worlds and again prior to competing and they chose to compete anyway.
Wondering if the parents of any of the athletes on the team even know that they were actually disqualified, since they were not dead last in prelims (which makes no sense to me).
The team is also supposedly ineligible to compete again in their division next year should they get another bid to Worlds. Of course, that team could just change it's division next year and be back on that mat once again. Love that USASF loophole.