All-Star Please Tell Me I Am Wrong

[dat.jpp]

If you want to be a world champion, you should have to be hard-working when it comes to all of the facets of the game. Having a non-tumbling world’s division in all stars is akin to competing your varsity team at the JV level in high school. What are we teaching these kids? It’s ok if you don’t want to tumble, we will accommodate your lack of effort and dedication by making a special globe just for you.

ETA: I suppose non-building will be next? How about non-building non-tumbling? Where does it stop?

Oh... How many times I want to give this an unlimited shimmies, one shimmy just doesn't cut it for what you just said.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Oh... How many times I want to give this an unlimited shimmies, one shimmy just doesn't cut it for what you just said.

Too many people are afraid to allow their kids to suffer a little disappointment in life. This is about more than just “participation trophies.” This is about life lessons. For example if you are in the running for a job that requires 3 tangible skills, and you perform 2 of them with excellence but can’t do the 3rd at all...the job will be given to someone who can do all three serviceable. They may not be as good at the other two as you are, but they can do all three.

Elite status should be reserved for elite performers

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I agree. It's rude and disrespectful to athletes who are not physically able to tumble due to joint problems to say this division is 'asinine' and that they are not well rounded athletes. This division seems like it was created with countries where gymnastics isn't a high profile sport in mind; since those countries aren't likely to have the kinds of facilities and qualified coaches that the US/Canada/UK/Australia have.
I don't think this division belongs at worlds, it seems like it would be a better fit at the Summit (especially if they've added open 4 to it). But I'd rather see a non-tumbling team, than a team with shaky level 3 tumbling and 2 running "fulls".

Joint problems not withstanding, they aren’t well-rounded in cheer if they’re not doing all of the skills. That doesn’t make them bad kids. It makes them physically incapable of participating at an elite level.

Creating a division just to hand off another world championship is like creating a special track and field division for people who try hard but aren’t naturally gifted with speed.

 

[Keep_Believing]

Honestly, when your body starts to wear out you don't get to continue to compete at elite levels.

 

[BBinNCsMom]

Joint problems not withstanding, they aren’t well-rounded in cheer if they’re not doing all of the skills. That doesn’t make them bad kids. It makes them physically incapable of participating at an elite level.

Creating a division just to hand off another world championship is like creating a special track and field division for people who try hard but aren’t naturally gifted with speed.

I don’t think that’s entirely the goal.

Part of what makes this sport Unique apart from power tumbling or gymnastics is the stunting. No other Olympic sport has that as an element. I admit, I side eyed this non-tumbling division at first too, but the reality is there are an incredible amount of kids that can stunt their asses off but for one reason or another can’t tumble level 5. What’s the best option for these kids and gyms if they want to go to worlds? I think kids and parents are tired of going/paying for the “experience” when they have no chance without the elite tumbling. It’s much easier to teach elite stunting than tumbling.

I think we will see much stronger level appropriate teams in the tumbling divisions and Less injuries.

I also think parents of these teams with marginal tumbling will be happy to have an option to go compete with a reasonable chance of winning rather than an “experience” at worlds. Just my 2 cents

Edited to add: I’m not for everyone gets a trophy mentality, but when you have a “worlds” team where only one person is throwing a scary running double and you have no standing elite tumbling (just an example), as a gym, you shouldn’t ask your parents to spend the money to take that team to worlds when they don’t stand a chance. In this case, they might if their stunting is good.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I don’t think that’s entirely the goal.

Edited to add: I’m not for everyone gets a trophy mentality, but when you have a “worlds” team where only one person is throwing a scary running double and you have no standing elite tumbling (just an example), as a gym, you shouldn’t ask your parents to spend the money to take that team to worlds when they don’t stand a chance. In this case, they might if their stunting is good.

The Team you describe should never be considered a world’s team. The fact that they survive the bid process to compete at the event is even more indicative of the real problem than the fact that we’ve now created a special division for them. It will take less than one season of having non tumbling teams at worlds and everyone will discover that it’s just one more path for teams to sand bag and get a free win. Mark my words: there will be at least one team in the top five in non tumbling at worlds that competed all season long as a “real” team, then rechoreographs nontumbling to get the bid and and go for a “win” that they don’t deserve

ETA:

Some of you may have forgotten when IO 5 and IOC5 were being touted as special divisions just to get international teams involved. What happened? Every SAG5 and SC5 that struggled to get a bid put a handful of over 18 athletes on their roster and competed in the less competitive division. We are more than 10 years later. Has a true international team ever won IO5 or IOC5? (I’m really asking this time because I stopped following closely when I realized what a sham all stars was becoming.

 

[WinstonsGirl]

The Team you describe should never be considered a world’s team. The fact that they survive the bid process to compete at the event is even more indicative of the real problem than the fact that we’ve now created a special division for them. It will take less than one season of having non tumbling teams at worlds and everyone will discover that it’s just one more path for teams to sand bag and get a free win. Mark my words: there will be at least one team in the top five in non tumbling at worlds that competed all season long as a “real” team, then rechoreographs nontumbling to get the bid and and go for a “win” that they don’t deserve

ETA:

Some of you may have forgotten when IO 5 and IOC5 were being touted as special divisions just to get international teams involved. What happened? Every SAG5 and SC5 that struggled to get a bid put a handful of over 18 athletes on their roster and competed in the less competitive division. We are more than 10 years later. Has a true international team ever won IO5 or IOC5? (I’m really asking this time because I stopped following closely when I realized what a sham all stars was becoming.

As for Intl teams winning, maybe were not truly Intl., but Canada dominates IO5, and lots of countries are routinely placing top 3-5 in IO/IOC 6, Flyers, Southern Cross, Unity, Viqueens, Bangkok and Wildcats from Sweden to name a few have all placed this high, and sometimes won those divisions.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

As for Intl teams winning, maybe were not truly Intl., but Canada dominates IO5, and lots of countries are routinely placing top 3-5 in IO/IOC 6, Flyers, Southern Cross, Unity, Viqueens, Bangkok and Wildcats from Sweden to name a few have all placed this high, and sometimes won those divisions.

Thank you. I really was curious about that. While I think it would be nice to see an overseas team win the thing, at least someone from outside the borders is doing well.

I will stick to my point though, that for several years the International divisions, especially the level 5 international divisions, were the stomping grounds for a large number of US level 5 senior teams that made just enough roster changes to get a bid, go to worlds, and the only reason they had a chance is because they were beating up on the weakling out of country teams.

 

[Keep_Believing]

As for Intl teams winning, maybe were not truly Intl., but Canada dominates IO5, and lots of countries are routinely placing top 3-5 in IO/IOC 6, Flyers, Southern Cross, Unity, Viqueens, Bangkok and Wildcats from Sweden to name a few have all placed this high, and sometimes won those divisions.

Will they stay International or go Open?

 

[Wendy Trekster]

If you want to be a world champion, you should have to be hard-working when it comes to all of the facets of the game. Having a non-tumbling world’s division in all stars is akin to competing your varsity team at the JV level in high school. What are we teaching these kids? It’s ok if you don’t want to tumble, we will accommodate your lack of effort and dedication by making a special globe just for you.

ETA: I suppose non-building will be next? How about non-building non-tumbling? Where does it stop?

That's like telling a runner - 'because you can't run the marathon, you shouldn't be a runner at all' --- different divisions, different skills.

Wouldn't be surprised if we see a Tumbling Only division, which you see in the gymnastics world (Not surprisingly Angel Rice does very well!!)...

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

That's like telling a runner - 'because you can't run the marathon, you shouldn't be a runner at all' --- different divisions, different skills.

Wouldn't be surprised if we see a Tumbling Only division, which you see in the gymnastics world (Not surprisingly Angel Rice does very well!!)...

Yes but cheerleading encompasses all of these things. At some point it’s no longer cheer, it’s glorified gymnastics or glorified acro with skimpy clothing.

 

[coacha]

. What’s the best option for these kids and gyms if they want to go to worlds?

Why does everyone need to go to worlds?

Hey, remember pre-worlds when everyone complained how every gym had national Champion banners and how there was no big stage, no way to truly know the best of the best? Yeah, we’re headed right back there. Worlds was supposed to be the best of the best.

Non-tumbling is not the best of the best, no matter your reason (injury, age, or mental blocks).

 

[quitthedrama]

I don’t think that’s entirely the goal.

Part of what makes this sport Unique apart from power tumbling or gymnastics is the stunting. No other Olympic sport has that as an element. I admit, I side eyed this non-tumbling division at first too, but the reality is there are an incredible amount of kids that can stunt their asses off but for one reason or another can’t tumble level 5. What’s the best option for these kids and gyms if they want to go to worlds? I think kids and parents are tired of going/paying for the “experience” when they have no chance without the elite tumbling. It’s much easier to teach elite stunting than tumbling.

I think we will see much stronger level appropriate teams in the tumbling divisions and Less injuries.

I also think parents of these teams with marginal tumbling will be happy to have an option to go compete with a reasonable chance of winning rather than an “experience” at worlds. Just my 2 cents

Edited to add: I’m not for everyone gets a trophy mentality, but when you have a “worlds” team where only one person is throwing a scary running double and you have no standing elite tumbling (just an example), as a gym, you shouldn’t ask your parents to spend the money to take that team to worlds when they don’t stand a chance. In this case, they might if their stunting is good.

Getting a bid to go to Worlds is far different than winning worlds. Divisions with restrictions shouldn't be created at the Worlds level to give kids a chance to win who can't compete at the elite level on an unrestricted team and that's exactly what the XS division was last year and the NT division is this year. This won't go over well with some people, but it is fact that although there were a couple of excellent teams in the XS division that could have been competitive in the small division, there were also teams who globed that weren't even competitive at local level competitions.
Plenty of athletes don't have elite tumbling yet are key players on World Championship teams - they excel at other critical parts of the score sheet. A separate division didn't need to be created for athletes who don't have elite tumbling. To compare NT to rhythmic gymnastics is apples and oranges - Artistic and Rhythmic are two entirely separate events (as is trampoline) - they don't incorporate the two at the same National and Worlds championships.

 

[mecheermom]

That's like telling a runner - 'because you can't run the marathon, you shouldn't be a runner at all' --- different divisions, different skills.

Wouldn't be surprised if we see a Tumbling Only division, which you see in the gymnastics world (Not surprisingly Angel Rice does very well!!)...

I am sorry but I do not see the parallel between the NT division vs. a typical worlds division and a runner vs. a marathon runner. Of course anyone can run but would they sign up for the Boston Marathon? Nope- not likely.
Cheer is a team sport and there are plenty of spots for a non-tumbler who has excellent stunting skills. Not just anyone can tumble and stunt to a Worlds level- just like not every runner will be able to handle a marathon.

Elite competitions, whether Worlds or a big Marathon require an elite skill set.


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[Cheerfun2]

I have to agree...my Cp does not have her double, and is on a 5R. She is a natural athlete, but getting non-restricted 5 tumbling separates the wheat from the chaff so to speak. She is going to actually have to put the work and time to get those skills if she wants to go to Worlds. She was briefly excited about the NT division, but my husband and I told her we weren’t footing the bill for a year on a NT team just to go to Worlds. She has no physical issues that would prevent her from getting a double. We refuse to reward a lack of work ethic on her part. I told her we love her and support her even if she never gets her double and stays R5, but not letting her take the easy way out to get to Worlds.