All-Star Sandbagging Karma

[cheerKT]

Just another thing to throw out there: Worlds/Summit/UCA/NCA/any out of state competition is very costly for travel. Could money ever play a part in why certain people opt out of these competitions or have roster changes? I haven't cheered all-star since I was in 8th grade, however, in 9th grade I did attend a competition with my old gym. That competition was one we received a bid to in California (we are from Florida). I was asked to join the team in fill in when some people could not afford the airfare and hotel and when others were behind on tuition payments. I was not the only one to fill in, it was at least half of the team that was replaced for monetary reasons. This was not a competition they had planned on attending at the beginning of the season. Now granted I did compete at my appropriate skill level and I believe most of the other athletes did as well but they very well could have pulled higher level athletes if that was all they had available.

It very well could play a part, and that's why I think it's important for gym owners and coaches to be up front about their intentions regarding bid competitions at the beginning of the season. A lot of owners around here have started putting the Summit on their schedule at tryouts, much like level 5 teams plan for Worlds ahead of time. Or let the parents know they plan on attending on any bid or a paid bid only. That way when the time comes and they do get that bid, everyone is prepared and knew in advance.

 

[schpo]

What about how sandbagging affects level 1 teams? This is CP's first year and she doesn't have a tumbling background. Close to 90% of her team is also first year athletes. They were crushed by the competition this year, and what I'm slowly picking up on is that many (not all) other level 1 teams we compete against are actually higher-level teams. Not level 5 or anything, but level 2, maybe? They're able to cleanly execute the skills required for level 1 and then some, at any rate.

CP was disappointed in her team's results, as was I. It stinks to invest a lot of money and time in cheer to see your child's team be beaten so soundly. I'm torn because I'd like her to be on a winning (or at least better-scoring) team, but I also recognize that her team is truly level 1.

Have you seen this in your area? Is there a "true" level 1? Is it for novices, or is it meant to be a step up from a prep team (which we don't have at our gym)?

 

[12stepCheermom]

Just another thing to throw out there: Worlds/Summit/UCA/NCA/any out of state competition is very costly for travel. Could money ever play a part in why certain people opt out of these competitions or have roster changes? I haven't cheered all-star since I was in 8th grade, however, in 9th grade I did attend a competition with my old gym. That competition was one we received a bid to in California (we are from Florida). I was asked to join the team in fill in when some people could not afford the airfare and hotel and when others were behind on tuition payments. I was not the only one to fill in, it was at least half of the team that was replaced for monetary reasons. This was not a competition they had planned on attending at the beginning of the season. Now granted I did compete at my appropriate skill level and I believe most of the other athletes did as well but they very well could have pulled higher level athletes if that was all they had available.

It was a factor for us. Now ex-cp was on medium coed and jC5 all season. We didn't realize jc5 even had the summit on the radar even after we got the bid in December. When it became official they were going to go we bowed out of the summit team because it was completely Infeasible for work/school/finances to spend back to back weekends with the mouse. It simply was impossible for our family to do worlds and summit back to back so someone else filled in for her on the JC5.


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[xomckenzieee]

If they're not doing it with the purpose of winning, just pull athletes from the level 4 team for the R5. Those athletes need some R5 experience too.


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Yes they need the experience but they may not have certain skills yet which could make stunting and tumbling more dangerous. It'd be like taking an entire Triple A baseball team and playing them against an MLB team that includes some of the Triple A team. The Triple A players on the MLB team are going to excel and get better because they have veterans and a high level of skill assisting them where as the Triple A players on the Triple A team are going to keep getting crushed and not improve because they are playing too high up for their skill set and do not have others on the team to assist them in playing at that higher level.

 

[cheerKT]

What about how sandbagging affects level 1 teams? This is CP's first year and she doesn't have a tumbling background. Close to 90% of her team is also first year athletes. They were crushed by the competition this year, and what I'm slowly picking up on is that many (not all) other level 1 teams we compete against are actually higher-level teams. Not level 5 or anything, but level 2, maybe? They're able to cleanly execute the skills required for level 1 and then some, at any rate.

CP was disappointed in her team's results, as was I. It stinks to invest a lot of money and time in cheer to see your child's team be beaten so soundly. I'm torn because I'd like her to be on a winning (or at least better-scoring) team, but I also recognize that her team is truly level 1.

Have you seen this in your area? Is there a "true" level 1? Is it for novices, or is it meant to be a step up from a prep team (which we don't have at our gym)?

My younger sister just finished a year on a youth level 1 team. It was her first year in cheer. They were very competitive, especially coming from a very small gym (3 teams total, nothing over a level 3). No one on her team had cheered before, but they ended up being the most "successful" team in the gym. One of the things I found was how quickly they progressed. There were 0 back handsprings on the team of 14 at the beginning of the year, but now nearly all of them have it. Many of them, my sister included have began working tucks. It could very well be that at the beginning of the season, your competitors were true level 1 teams and just gained skills pretty rapidly over the course of that year.

 

[TheVipersMom]

Also some gyms require you to have level 1 skills to be placed level 1 at tryouts and others everyone makes level 1 because they have no show or prep teams for you to go onto first.
Yes these kids are usually coachable to get the skills maybe by first comp or by nationals but they usually do not come with the same attributes as someone who has had their back walkover and front walkover and perfected it all summer.


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[Babs]

Just another thing to throw out there: Worlds/Summit/UCA/NCA/any out of state competition is very costly for travel. Could money ever play a part in why certain people opt out of these competitions or have roster changes? I haven't cheered all-star since I was in 8th grade, however, in 9th grade I did attend a competition with my old gym. That competition was one we received a bid to in California (we are from Florida). I was asked to join the team in fill in when some people could not afford the airfare and hotel and when others were behind on tuition payments. I was not the only one to fill in, it was at least half of the team that was replaced for monetary reasons. This was not a competition they had planned on attending at the beginning of the season. Now granted I did compete at my appropriate skill level and I believe most of the other athletes did as well but they very well could have pulled higher level athletes if that was all they had available.

Your situation sounds perfectly legit. And I think many times conflicts or money or injuries prevent individual team members from competing with their team so replacements are necessary. But when the gym has an entire other team competing at the same level but different division and they gym doesn't ask single one of those athletes to be fill ins but instead asks athletes competing one, two, or three divisions higher ... then the fill ins have been selected in order to improve the team's chances of winning.

 

[Pebbles49]

I was wondering, if an athlete comes to a new sport with no cheer experience, but have plenty of tumbling experience - (at least up to layouts and almost full) Would it be considered sandbagging, if that athlete is placed on a level 1 team their first year of AS cheerleading?

 

[5-6-7-8]

I was wondering, if an athlete comes to a new sport with no cheer experience, but have plenty of tumbling experience - (at least up to layouts and almost full) Would it be considered sandbagging, if that athlete is placed on a level 1 team their first year of AS cheerleading?

I don't think so. Tumbling is just one part of a multi-variable equation.



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[amy1k]

I was wondering, if an athlete comes to a new sport with no cheer experience, but have plenty of tumbling experience - (at least up to layouts and almost full) Would it be considered sandbagging, if that athlete is placed on a level 1 team their first year of AS cheerleading?

This is something that happens often at my daughter's gym (not fulls on level 1, but somewhat proficient tumblers who are placed lower to gain stunting skills). It's not surprising because they are out of a gymnastics gym. Also, our athletes seem to pick up tumbling skills at a much quicker rate than stunting skills.


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[Pebbles49]

This is something that happens often at my daughter's gym (not fulls on level 1, but somewhat proficient tumblers who are placed lower to gain stunting skills). It's not surprising because they are out of a gymnastics gym. Also, our athletes seem to pick up tumbling skills at a much quicker rate than stunting skills.


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That is good to know, I was very naive at the time about the sport and the different levels... I was told after one of the other moms questioned my daughter's placement on the Jr 1 team... This mom seemed to had been upset by my daughter's placement and the coaches had explained that my daughter needed to learn cheerleading basics (motions and stunting, etc)

After reading different message boards about sandbagging and stacking of teams...Well, I always worried that something like this happened with my daughter, unbeknownst to me...

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

That is good to know, I was very naive at the time about the sport and the different levels... I was told after one of the other moms questioned my daughter's placement on the Jr 1 team... This mom seemed to had been upset by my daughter's placement and the coaches had explained that my daughter needed to learn cheerleading basics (motions and stunting, etc)

After reading different message boards about sandbagging and stacking of teams...Well, I always worried that something like this happened with my daughter, unbeknownst to me...

No. The decision was totally appropriate.

Sidebar:

Too many times, coaches are only looking at ONE set of criteria for a level and use that to determine where a kid needs to be.

This is how we end up with those kids on L5 teams who are oh so obviously nuggeting in the back for tumbling. Or stunting. They were placed on that team based on one skill set.

That works really well for football, baseball, etc. where there are kids coming through a system having only ever played one position and there are position-specific specialists and teams wanting certain people to do that one specific thing.

In cheer, I've always felt that while you might be a beast in one particular area, it is always to your benefit to be well-rounded.

Especially because for those heading into college programs, because depending on where you cheer, you'll be expected to be solid all around. Are there some girls who are (example) BEAST flyers in college who have never been in any other position? Yep. But you can bet that she has more to bring to the table than JUST That.

If you have one spot left and can only take 2 more flyers for a college team, and they are both AMAZING in the air, more likely than not, you're going with the one who is not going to have to nugget because she can't tumble to save her life or has the tumbling of a L2.

College has no room for one-trick nuggets. You need to be the Whopper with all the toppings. It's a burger world.

 

[Klynn641]

Just another thing to throw out there: Worlds/Summit/UCA/NCA/any out of state competition is very costly for travel. Could money ever play a part in why certain people opt out of these competitions or have roster changes? I haven't cheered all-star since I was in 8th grade, however, in 9th grade I did attend a competition with my old gym. That competition was one we received a bid to in California (we are from Florida). I was asked to join the team in fill in when some people could not afford the airfare and hotel and when others were behind on tuition payments. I was not the only one to fill in, it was at least half of the team that was replaced for monetary reasons. This was not a competition they had planned on attending at the beginning of the season. Now granted I did compete at my appropriate skill level and I believe most of the other athletes did as well but they very well could have pulled higher level athletes if that was all they had available.

You're.correct. That frequently happens where an athletes financial constraints prevent their attendance at an event. I have no issue with that. I live on the West Coast and can appreciate how expensive it can be to attend competitions where travel is involved (our closest competition is hours away and they are all two day competitions, except one). But, I feel you should restrict the replacement to one level higher and no more. And, that doesn't explain teams that max out with 5 Worlds athletes added to their team strictly for Summit. If the rule allowed for 10 crossovers you can bet they would have 10 Worlds athletes on their squad.

The time and energy spent on skirting the rules and finding ways to cheat just needs to be spent working with the athletes in the gym. Just bring it fair and square to the mat. Let the athletes compete on a level playing field and let the best team win. Coaches have faith in your team and their abilities. Trust in your abilities as their coach. Don't go to the dark side to log your win. And should you lose, show your team how to be classy. No blame. No excuses. Give the winner his props. Teach your athletes how to accept defeat gracefully and walk away with their head held high. Defeat is very much a part of life. We can't always be winners when it comes to real life and we need to know how to accept that fact and keep it moving to compete another day..


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[Klynn641]

Yes they need the experience but they may not have certain skills yet which could make stunting and tumbling more dangerous. It'd be like taking an entire Triple A baseball team and playing them against an MLB team that includes some of the Triple A team. The Triple A players on the MLB team are going to excel and get better because they have veterans and a high level of skill assisting them where as the Triple A players on the Triple A team are going to keep getting crushed and not improve because they are playing too high up for their skill set and do not have others on the team to assist them in playing at that higher level.

I apologize, I was being sarcastic with my remark. It was stated that it's not about winning. But, if it's not about winning, give some level 4 athletes the opportunity to gain some level 5 experience. We know the Worlds athletes already have level 5 experience so they have nothing to gain.

If it's not about the winning how come crossovers are always pulled from a higher level ? Safety isn't the issue, winning is.

Having said that, I agree entirely with what you said in your post. I understood your baseball analogy. And your correct, the mentoring of the up and coming athletes serves a valuable purpose. I have no issue with any of what you say. My sarcasm just got the better of me because....admit or not, it is about the winning.


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[Klynn641]

True. But you can drop an entire team's level for summit and make an entirely new team out of higher level kids. That will dramatically change rankings and it's not illegal. There aren't roster change limits like there are for worlds that I'm aware of. The 5 worlds crossover rule is the only roster limit I know about. Feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong about that.


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Unfortunately I no longer view Summit as an elite competition where you go when you want see the best of the best of cheer. When they start caring more about a fair competition and less about chasing $ maybe they can redeem their reputation. Back when this competition was IALC it definitely had it's shortcomings. But it didn't seem to have so many gyms stacking teams and had more credibility than Summit does now.


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