All-Star Your Definition Of A World's Caliber Team

[Just-a-Mom]

I sent this in a message to someone, but it is part of my point, so I'll post it here too. I know my NCAA example isn't perfect--I was just trying to point out that lots of people said VCU didn't even deserve to be in the tournament and I feel like they've more than proven they deserved to be there. Just like they say teams don't deserve to go to Worlds.

As for Worlds, these teams are PAYING to go. PAYING. If you could pay an entry fee into the NCAA tournament I'd bet a lot more teams would go. But NCAA is HUGE. So they make enough money from advertisers, networks, and fans--they don't have to make money from the athletes. We don't have that luxury. So Worlds has to make money from someone. At Large bids=revenue. When AllStar cheer gets so huge that networks are vying for the chance to get to air Worlds, and advertisers are paying millions to advertise for 30 seconds during the broadcast, and thousands of people are buying t-shirts, hats, coozies, etc. that say "Cheer Extreme" on them...then maybe we can re-visit this issue and have a more strict method of handing out bids.

 

[newcheerdad]

As for Worlds, these teams are PAYING to go. PAYING.

So here's a wild concept - get rid of at-large bids altogether.

Go to comps to compete for a paid bid. If you don't get a paid bid, your team can still go to Worlds provided you competed at (x) number of bid giving events in a World's division.

We're not that far removed from that now.

 

[cheererinIL]

As for Worlds, these teams are PAYING to go. PAYING. If you could pay an entry fee into the NCAA tournament I'd bet a lot more teams would go

I said I would shut up, but I just want to clarify a few things.

#1 I am not anti-underdog. It's really bothering me 'cause I think I'm lumped into this group and that is not at all what I stand for. I think it's fantastic for smaller gyms, or new programs to represent at Worlds and more than anything, hold their own with the "big dogs". I do, however, feel passionately about some of the end of season at large bids being "defaulted" to teams who are not performing level 5 skills, or placing very low in the competition. This is not an issue with any specific teams (there are those that can be used as an example, though), this is an issue with the system in place.

#2 If you could pay to be in the NCAA tournament, it wouldn't be the NCAA tournament. Simply being able to afford Worlds so then you get to go makes Worlds into any other national competition; NCA, UCA, Jamfest, etc. It's Worlds because not everyone gets to go, not everyone qualifies to go and not everyone has a "right" to it. Just like because I go to a wealthy community college, I don't just get to go to the NCAA tournament.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

So here's a wild concept - get rid of at-large bids altogether.

Go to comps to compete for a paid bid. If you don't get a paid bid, your team can still go to Worlds provided you competed at (x) number of bid giving events in a World's division.

We're not that far removed from that now.

Now THIS I can agree with. Definitely a win-win: EP's still get competitors because everyone has to go to X number of events; "Worlds" wins because they're still making revenue from comp fees, etc.; Disney World wins because there are still just as many people coming to DW (and you know that Disney needs more money...); I win because the "little guy" still gets a chance to go to Worlds and maybe even do well there; and last, but not least, the "doubters" win because there will still be the Paid Bid winners who earned their trip and get bragging rights for that...and the others are going, but they can't say they beat anyone to go--they just say "Yup, we're heading off to Worlds".

I like it!

 

[Just-a-Mom]

I said I would shut up, but I just want to clarify a few things.

#1 I am not anti-underdog. It's really bothering me 'cause I think I'm lumped into this group and that is not at all what I stand for. I think it's fantastic for smaller gyms, or new programs to represent at Worlds and more than anything, hold their own with the "big dogs". I do, however, feel passionately about some of the end of season at large bids being "defaulted" to teams who are not performing level 5 skills, or placing very low in the competition. This is not an issue with any specific teams (there are those that can be used as an example, though), this is an issue with the system in place.

#2 If you could pay to be in the NCAA tournament, it wouldn't be the NCAA tournament. Simply being able to afford Worlds so then you get to go makes Worlds into any other national competition; NCA, UCA, Jamfest, etc. It's Worlds because not everyone gets to go, not everyone qualifies to go and not everyone has a "right" to it. Just like because I go to a wealthy community college, I don't just get to go to the NCAA tournament.

No, you weren't being lumped in. At least not by me--you're one of my favorite people on here! We can disagree on this--I still get what you're saying, and you say it without being ugly at all. I was annoyed with Flyer Mom because she picked a particular team and blasted them on here--and no one said anything. If someone even says they don't like one of the "big dogs'" uniforms, there's 3 days of arguing and banning. And then 2 posts later she said they weren't going to Worlds this year, but would definitely be going next year. I wanted to answer her, but it appears that she no longer exists. It just kind of negated her point--if it's soooooooo easy to get a bid and any loser can just waltz in and get one, then why wasn't her team going this year? So she had me frustrated. Sorry if you felt like you were being lumped in.

I get what you guys are saying. I like NewCheerDad's idea.

OK. I gotta do some work--or no one in my house is competing in any comp, let alone Worlds!

 

[NJ Coach]

I'll admit, I'm guilty of saying that certain teams don't belong at Worlds. There's one team that comes to mind who will be attending that would probably struggle as a level 4 team. But, I don't get a say in who attends. As much as we would all like less At-Large bids given out, I just don't see that happening anytime soon. At least EP's are no longer allowed to pass them down.
There's always going to be a team that surprises everyone and comes out of nowhere. There's always going to be teams going down for the experience. It's not up to us to tell them how to spend their money. They want to go and compete once for $25k, well that's on them. For those that say they water down the competition...are we watching the same thing? The heavy hitters are still there, and for the most part, it's the first time they're all together. Every division is tough, and when the teams are on, you can feel the tension in the air. So there's some not-so-great teams there. There's no rule that says you have to watch them.

 

[cheererinIL]

I like NewCheerDad's idea.

Ditto! Also, glad we're mature enough to agree to disagree

I'm a big fan of the underdog so I just wanted to clarify! I would love for a team to come in and shake up the top 3 at Worlds that everyone is so sure of.

 

[WOWFACTOR]

There's been quite a bit of discussion on who deserves at-large bids etc. etc.... There also are a number of "big dogs" around the country who do not have paid bids. Does that mean they are not really "bid dogs"? One could argue there are some little dogs who happen to do well one day or didn't even have the highest score and got a paid paid. Does that mean they really did not deserve it?

Other than the obvious top 6-7 teams who really deserves what? As they say "any given Sunday..."

 

[4me2Kno]

I’d like to add a few comments regarding this topic. My gym and my team were the ones specifically singled out in this thread as unworthy. And after our program was accused of EXPLOITING our athletes with a harmless shout out internet article congratulating them on earning a bid, I needed to count to ten and not respond immediately and emotionally to being attacked… Which is how comments on this thread were directed.


As far as everyone’s judgement/definition on what is a worlds caliber team, those opinions are just that opinions. Here is mine. There is only 1 definition of what is a Worlds Caliber team that really counts, The USASF. The USASF sanctioned these bids, and is well aware of the amount of paid and at large bids at the disposal of the event producers to award from day 1 of the season to the very last bid qualifying event. Therefore their (the USASF’s) determination is that the amount of bids that are out there to be awarded is sufficient to make sure the quantity/quality of teams they want/will allow at their event is taken care of. So from the organizers of WORLDS, the teams that get these bids have earned them and deserve to be there. Is it the opinion of many that there are too many bids? I would say that is a pretty good consensus, but until fewer bids are offered at some point in the future, the teams that earn them under the current system are deserving and should BE the definition of a WORLDS CALIBER TEAM… And judging them to be anything less than deserving really does come off as an insult even though the sharing an opinion might be the intent. If and when fewer bids are awarded that definition will change and either way there will still be those who say certain teams don’t belong…


Also, as far as bids defaulting at the end of season to teams in general being a point of contention… I don’t necessarily think this argument isn’t without its own issues… I have looked at videos and results all year of World’s qualifying events and at some of the teams earning bids, from competitions giving bids from November thru the end of the year, and there are bid winners at these events that would have many of the commenters on this thread scratching their heads and pointing fingers, “Unworthy”… I would put my teams performance up against other bid earning teams at earlier competitions and I think we would hold our own, discrediting an earned bid just because it is late in the season I don’t think is fair… There seems to be a couple of early and mid season competitions that either have too few level 5 teams going for bids, so there are bids for everybody, or even the most prestigious competitions like NCA and Cheersport just have tons of bids to give in general, and teams in the teens and 20’s of placement get them there. So since there are cases of the so called “DEFAULTS” all year long, the end of the year bids shouldn’t be discounted in my opinion any more than other points in the year… A bid earned in November is deserved just as much as a bid earned in March. It actually may be more difficult to get an end of year bid because many teams are out chasing them at that point…

More to come

 

[4me2Kno]

Some other perspective relating to my team in particular I’d like to make a few points… Our teams recent performance, placement, and bid have been called into question, Based on our score, placement, and skills being performed. Which right off the bat I don’t get, we scored respectably well on a major companies score sheet!?!? Our score on the Jam Brands scoring scale would have put us in bid range at Jamfest SuperNationals, and COA Midwest Nationals, both earlier Jam Brand competitions for bids, and probably would have given us great opportunities at many other bid nationals as well… So the end of the year bid issue some have and minimum score qualifier requirement probably wouldn’t be issues for us since our overall score would have been competitive in general and at earlier events in the year.


As far as our placement at our bid qualifying event, it was low in our division, and yes we earned a bid… But the teams in our small sr 5 division at our event at years end ALL but one have earned a bid and will be attending worlds… This was a deep, tough, and high scoring division that will field over 15% of the Small Sr performers at worlds. We placed low in a division, with a high score, filled with level 5 teams that will be attending worlds, I think that speaks something about the level of competition, in which we held our own… Teams that finished with high division placements in weaker divisions or divisions with only 2 or 3 teams at the same event with lower scores earning bids don’t get singled out??? Division placement seems moot when there is a division top to bottom with more skilled teams in it than any other and also when the bids at the event are being awarded based strictly on score not placement. We weren’t even the 6th out of 6 at large bids awarded, we earned the 3rd of 6 at large bids by score, and finished ahead of MANY other level 5 teams that were also praying for a bid and worked to earn their invitation to worlds. Tell those teams that the bid earning teams above them got bids “defaulted” to them.


As far as the skills in our routine and not being a level 5 team – our coaching staff studied the jam brands scoring scale very carefully to put together level 5 stunts/pyramid/jumps/ tumbling ratios to score well at this event. Our routine and team was criticized here as not worlds caliber based on our performance… However, we put our routine together to do well at this event on this level 5 scoring rubric, to say that our stunt was not worlds caliber and not level 5 doesn’t seem right in my opinion because the elements we performed at our event scored above a 9.5 + on 10 point scale in the difficulty ranges for level 5. The sequences were set up in this way by design and not for lack of skill. As I said before in a previous post ,double ups and high to high tick tocks are very sexy, but there are other level 5 elements that will help put you in ranges both at jam brand events and at worlds. It floors me that so many people don’t understand that many of these perceived elite/world’s caliber stunts they see are actually legal in level 4. Full up/level 4, switch up and tick tocks/level 4, even 1 and ½ twisting transitions are ok at level 4. Our routine and its elements were set up for our qualifying event, our elements for our worlds routine will be set up off of that scoresheet. Long story short, as a coach with a team scoring above the 9 range raw score on the jam brands level 5 scoresheet, I feel that alone speaks for a teams legitimacy, and if we didn’t have a girl trip and fall to the floor stepping into standing tumbling and another trip to the floor in her dance of all places and have silly deductions, we would have easily finished with final scores above 9 and higher placement in our tough division. Not trying to make excuses, but our routine was competitive at our event, at level 5, and will be updated to maximize the worlds scoresheets in the weeks we have to prepare.

No we don’t have delusions of grandeur, of top 10… But this is where our team is in its evolution, we are building and growing and this experience will benefit these kids more than they can even appreciate yet. And I know this from experience. The first year our gym took a lv 5 team to worlds it was on an at large bid, and we earned it respectively at Supernationals with a decent showing. We had no expectations of placements or making finals, even though we had hoped for it. When they started announcing teams for finals we were huddled together hands cluched, heads down, breath held - hearing our name called for finals is a moment I will never forget, the best one I’ve ever had in cheer ever, and something I want to share with this team now or even next year. We ended up placing 6th in prelims easily making it into finals. That team that made finals came back changed and so happy and motivated for the next year. The only way a coach can give the gift of those magical moments to their athletes is to put them in those situations… That’s the road we are on, maybe we won’t make finals this year, maybe our moment is a little bit further in our future, but the experience of being at worlds WILL change these kids in a positive way and push us to improve and grow in the following year, and the Worlds Experience will only push them harder and faster towards their goal. Our moment is out there.

Our season has been SOOOO Challenging, and I will spare the long version, but our team has fought so hard to get where it is at now. These kids deserve everything they have worked for and earned and can’t wait for WORLDS.

 

[cheererinIL]

More to come

Gosh, I can't wait.

or even the most prestigious competitions like NCA and Cheersport just have tons of bids to give in general, and teams in the teens and 20’s of placement get them there

Can you please tell me the teams who placed 20th place or above at Cheersport who received bids? I was unaware that they gave away that many bids..

Listen, I get where you're coming from. I would be offended if my team was called out on something that isn't an issue with your team specifically, just the system in place. For me, the top teams aren't the top teams because they receive paid bids. They are the tops teams because.. well, they place in the TOP. Also, my opinion is that a team that places in the lower half of the competition should not receive a bid to Worlds since the teams placing in the top spots have already received bids. I'm sorry your team falls into this category, and I'm sorry for any teams who were offended by the discussion of the process in this thread. But I think it was mentioned several times that this is a USASF issue, not an Allstar Athletics issue (I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong). Unfortunately, your team was used as an example in a discussion about the caliber of teams receiving bids. I don't think the timing in which a bid is received is important, I will retract my statement that said "end of the year defaults". I think the defaulting bid situation is unacceptable at any time of the year.

 

[cheererinIL]

Our season has been SOOOO Challenging, and I will spare the long version, but our team has fought so hard to get where it is at now. These kids deserve everything they have worked for and earned and can’t wait for WORLDS.

Looking forward to seeing your team compete. I can agree with you on one thing- it is not fair to single out a team of teenaged & younger girls about whether they really deserve to be where they are. As for the rest, my favorite phrase.. agree to disagree. Good luck in Orlando

 

[4me2Kno]

Gosh, I can't wait.



Can you please tell me the teams who placed 20th place or above at Cheersport who received bids? I was unaware that they gave away that many bids..

Listen, I get where you're coming from. I would be offended if my team was called out on something that isn't an issue with your team specifically, just the system in place. For me, the top teams aren't the top teams because they receive paid bids. They are the tops teams because.. well, they place in the TOP. Also, my opinion is that a team that places in the lower half of the competition should not receive a bid to Worlds since the teams placing in the top spots have already received bids. I'm sorry your team falls into this category, and I'm sorry for any teams who were offended by the discussion of the process in this thread. But I think it was mentioned several times that this is a USASF issue, not an Allstar Athletics issue (I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong). Unfortunately, your team was used as an example in a discussion about the caliber of teams receiving bids. I don't think the timing in which a bid is received is important, I will retract my statement that said "end of the year defaults". I think the defaulting bid situation is unacceptable at any time of the year.

I'll pm you some NCA and Cheersport info

 

[cheererinIL]

I'll pm you some NCA and Cheersport info

Thank you.

 

[newcheerdad]

Now THIS I can agree with. Definitely a win-win: EP's still get competitors because everyone has to go to X number of events; "Worlds" wins because they're still making revenue from comp fees, etc.; Disney World wins because there are still just as many people coming to DW (and you know that Disney needs more money...); I win because the "little guy" still gets a chance to go to Worlds and maybe even do well there; and last, but not least, the "doubters" win because there will still be the Paid Bid winners who earned their trip and get bragging rights for that...and the others are going, but they can't say they beat anyone to go--they just say "Yup, we're heading off to Worlds".

I like it!

The other advantage to that would be that if you know you'll be participating in enough events to attend Worlds that you can plan for it in advance, rather than "hoping" that you get a bid. I think you'd see more teams attend Worlds.

And if you want to make paid bids more prestigious, give paid bid winners a bye of some kind. Maybe have three rounds of competition and paid bid winners get a bye into round two - or something like that. The only rule would be that EP's would have to agree to a uniform standard for giving out bids.