All-Star From Courtney Pope - "the View From Backstage At The Naccc..."

[cheermommaRN]

interesting how everyone assumes she's solely calling out WC when she said "our NJ friends"

No but she did plainly by name call out WC at the beginning of this thread....basically saying that WC is pushing these changes due to CEA beating them and a scoresheet telling Twinkles they needed "more double fulls". Completely ignoring the fact that other gyms in this division are also supporting the changes.
I get it these gyms don't like each other but this season was going very nicely up to this point. I'm pretty sure the mods are going to have their hands full from now until Worlds whenever these gyms meet up.
The fact that the lighter fluid was dumped by the owner...not cool.

 

[ringchaser]

no not cool at all.

 

[SharkDad]

Who said these gyms don't like each other? I missed that part.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

Who said these gyms don't like each other? I missed that part.

True you can't assume everyone in each gym doesn't like everyone in the other but Courtney saying the reasons for the rule is WC losing to CEA because they can't compete in doubles doesn't exactly stir up warm feelings.

 

[cheermommaRN]

I'll clarify...the fans of said gyms have a tendency to disagree a lot....

 

[SharkDad]

I understand both of your points. But it's people in this thread that say they don't like each other. That's how it starts. I'm from one of those gyms and I know guite a few people but I don't know ANYONE that doesn't like any of the other gyms. Many of the cheerleaders and parents are friends. People assume things when they read an opinion. They post it. . .to others that now looks like a fact.

Courtney pointed out something specific. That's her opinion and it never said anything close to "I don't like that gym" or "we're not friends" or "that gym is not concerned with safety"

People in this thread did that. Just want us all to keep that stuff straight when we read and form our own opinons.

 

[Ashay]

Thanks for giving me something to read at work today!!

 

[Mrs.CheerExtreme]

what part of FRIENDS are we misinterpreting here?

 

[CharlotteASMom]

There are many parents at CAC and CEA that know each other well. Kids have gone to CEA for opportunities that CAC can't provide. We have kids that return for their own personal reasons. Many of us are close friends and we discuss our gym's philosophies quite often. Here are a few points I'd like to make.

• Many kids CAC with full/double skills go to CEA. In addition many other gyms in NC lose kids to CEA because of opportunites they can't provide. This is s business and CEA can provide a service that others cannot. However most know in NC that if CEA loses Youth 5 then they lose a huge opportunity to attract elite youth talent. CEA is not the only gym that can teach proper tumbling but they are the only one that has 5(?) locations, 800 athletes, and a lot of smaller sized well-coached gyms within a 3 hour drive to Kenersville to pull 36 Elite kids from. CEA is far from the only gym in NC that can teach "proper" tumbling. Again, this is not explained as a fault but as an opportunity that CEA has been able to wisely use to their advantage.
• The campaign here in NC to "Save Youth 5" is crazy right now. Emails and text messaged are flying back and forth about how WC is trying to ruin Youth Elite. Invitations were everywhere inviting anyone(from any gym) that cares about the division to come on by and be a part of a video to "Save Youth 5". The joke in the state right now is "Do they ask our kids to throw their best tumbling pass when you go also?"
• Junior aged parents are now being warned that if Youth 5 is eliminated then the junior flyers will be coming out of the air to make room for the youthies. Stage 2 hysteria began.
• A last minute effort was made to take Youth Elite to Jamfest to prove that Y5 isn't dead by having 3 teams there. Last I heard the parents didn't want to do it. Go figure...a costly last minute trip to Indy from NC in the middle of an already hectic Nationals season.
• Courtney knows how to work the cheer system like no other. I am constantly amazed at what she comes up with and I have no doubt she'd do anything for her kids.

I mention all these things NOT because they are wrong. It's actually very smart business, This is what CEA needs to do to save the division and one of the doors they use to attract new talent. However, to have Courtney call out the industry for manipulation and behind the scenes tactics is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?

Maybe WC started this. Maybe they are scared of competing against CEA. I don't personally believe it but that's worth about as much as my opinion on the rest of it. Last I heard though, every member gets a vote and I highly doubt that even Elaine's powers of pursuasion can convince every coach in the USASF to vote against Youth 5 if they didn't already feel it was the right thing to do.

 

[kristenthegreat]

I'd just like to remind everyone that the only issue of 'where these kids will go', is if it's completely ELIMINATED. At which point, the 9 other gyms will have to make a youth 4 OR add another junior 5. If it's restricted, these kids CAN and probably WILL still be on a youth 5 team. They don't HAVE to go to a junior 5 team and they don't HAVE to compete the doubles they DO have. They can easily take their time perfecting skills because they've got plenty of time before they may need them, *or so people hope.* I still need an actual number of how many of these kids have doubles before I get all bent out of shape. If on a team of 36, the number is less than 10, I can't help but feel that restricting them isn't going to have this huge industry-changing dynamic that people expect.

Now, if youth 5 IS eliminated, that takes something else into play. The gym this will directly affect the MOST is a gym who already has filled up a junior 5 team in every division offered. That would be only CEA, as far as I know. And although I don't know the exact crossover model, perhaps she could use LESS, considering she would have more L5 kids to move around.

I think what a lot of the rule changes proposed boil down to is that the SCORE SHEETS are the issue. If Elaine or ANYONE is proposing things because the score sheets are contradicting what we think is best for the industry, change the score sheets? Make the Youth 5 score sheet not weigh so heavily on doubles and therefore eliminate the pressure to get them. If the conversation with parents isn't 'Well, youth 5 doesn't allow doubles' but 'Well, youth 5 doesn't weigh as heavily on having doubles but the execution of proper tumbling, like well-executed fulls', to me the second one sounds a lot more acceptable. Maybe I'm just not looking at things the right way..

 

[NJ Coach]

WOW! You're a little "cheertective" aren't you!?!?!

I do try lol. Actually, it started as me curious who actually made the proposals. Then as I saw they were all from NJ, it struck me as funny (and ironic). Thought others might enjoy the same laugh I was having.

 

[cheer36mom]

I don't know if I really buy the whole canceling out the youth 5 division or restricting the skills in it tumbling or otherwise based on the "safety of the child" rational. I do feel that rules should be in place to keep athletes safe and promote proper progression, but limiting or killing the y5 division I don't think will do that. What is the youth division 11 years and under I think... So the issue is the industry wants to keep kids 11 and under safer by limiting the skills and ensure proper progression... Does the proposed changes to the youth 5 division accomplish this?

No

How many kids 11 and under are competing these elite skills on junior 5 teams? Who is going to police, protect, ensure the proper progression of these YOUTH aged kids who are just on junior 5 teams? I bet there are 10 times the amount of kids in this age bracket competing on junior teams than are kids on fielded youth 5 teams

You can't tell me that an 9 year old with a double full on a youth team is really any different than an 9 year old with a double full on a junior team?!?!?! One would get to perform the skill and one would not with the rule changes. These changes would not make sure the 9 year old double on the Jr 5 team was safer or progressed properly...

This is why I don't buy the whole safety of the kids angle, cause it doesn't keep all the kids in an age group under the same playing field... If there was a kid progressed too quick where safety may be a concern in that age group mom and dad can just bring her to a gym that will put her on a Jr 5 team. hey Susie is 10 with a scary double, just put her on a junior team and it's fine

I'm not even really sure how I feel about the whole debate, I just don't feel that the proposed "fixes" will accomplish what is intended. I've seen double fulls executed to perfection by a 10 year old 100 percent safe, and seen 4 Different kids at the same comp leave on stretchers with major knee injuries throwing doubles on senior teams...

The proposed changes do not apply evenly...

Im not saying this is what i want or would propose, but would answer the issue of keeping it safe for kids in this age group across the board would be if the usasf said the proposed rule change would only certify athletes 11 and under up to level 4, that would cover the whole age group not just the youth division... Yea it would basically still kill youth 5, but it would be fair across the board to protect all 11 year olds and under... Not leave a loophole that would let them be on jr 5 or sr 5 open teams... Again not what I would propose, but covers the issue in full...

I want a safe sport, with proper progression at all age groups and levels, especially at the 11 and under age group, but killing y5 or restricting it will not ensure kids this age are progressed any better or safer cause they can still go after those elite skills to be on a Jr 5 team or a sr open 5 team.

End of the day the responsibility will be on the coaches to stick to progressions whether it is an 8 or 18 year old...

My 2 cents

i agree with your take on safety i feel as though if they restrict y5 than maybe that will solve some of the safety issues however if they get rid of it all together it wont at all because now these y5 athletes will go j5 and be throwing doubles however if these athletes are already throwing doubles on y5 who is to say that even if it is restricted they would just transfer to j5 to be able to compete them so im very interested to see how this whole thing plays out

 

[wcdad]

There are many parents at CAC and CEA that know each other well. Kids have gone to CEA for opportunities that CAC can't provide. We have kids that return for their own personal reasons. Many of us are close friends and we discuss our gym's philosophies quite often. Here are a few points I'd like to make.

• Many kids CAC with full/double skills go to CEA. In addition many other gyms in NC lose kids to CEA because of opportunites they can't provide. This is s business and CEA can provide a service that others cannot. However most know in NC that if CEA loses Youth 5 then they lose a huge opportunity to attract elite youth talent. CEA is not the only gym that can teach proper tumbling but they are the only one that has 5(?) locations, 800 athletes, and a lot of smaller sized well-coached gyms within a 3 hour drive to Kenersville to pull 36 Elite kids from. CEA is far from the only gym in NC that can teach "proper" tumbling. Again, this is not explained as a fault but as an opportunity that CEA has been able to wisely use to their advantage.
• The campaign here in NC to "Save Youth 5" is crazy right now. Emails and text messaged are flying back and forth about how WC is trying to ruin Youth Elite. Invitations were everywhere inviting anyone(from any gym) that cares about the division to come on by and be a part of a video to "Save Youth 5". The joke in the state right now is "Do they ask our kids to throw their best tumbling pass when you go also?"
• Junior aged parents are now being warned that if Youth 5 is eliminated then the junior flyers will be coming out of the air to make room for the youthies. Stage 2 hysteria began.
• A last minute effort was made to take Youth Elite to Jamfest to prove that Y5 isn't dead by having 3 teams there. Last I heard the parents didn't want to do it. Go figure...a costly last minute trip to Indy from NC in the middle of an already hectic Nationals season.
• Courtney knows how to work the cheer system like no other. I am constantly amazed at what she comes up with and I have no doubt she'd do anything for her kids.

I mention all these things NOT because they are wrong. It's actually very smart business, This is what CEA needs to do to save the division and one of the doors they use to attract new talent. However, to have Courtney call out the industry for manipulation and behind the scenes tactics is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?

Maybe WC started this. Maybe they are scared of competing against CEA. I don't personally believe it but that's worth about as much as my opinion on the rest of it. Last I heard though, every member gets a vote and I highly doubt that even Elaine's powers of pursuasion can convince every coach in the USASF to vote against Youth 5 if they didn't already feel it was the right thing to do.

Great post, well written.. thank you

 

[hopskipandjump]

Anybody wanting to send me a Youth Level 5 team, please PM me for directions....

 

[specialtpass]

I'd just like to remind everyone that the only issue of 'where these kids will go', is if it's completely ELIMINATED. At which point, the 9 other gyms will have to make a youth 4 OR add another junior 5. If it's restricted, these kids CAN and probably WILL still be on a youth 5 team. They don't HAVE to go to a junior 5 team and they don't HAVE to compete the doubles they DO have. They can easily take their time perfecting skills because they've got plenty of time before they may need them, *or so people hope.* I still need an actual number of how many of these kids have doubles before I get all bent out of shape. If on a team of 36, the number is less than 10, I can't help but feel that restricting them isn't going to have this huge industry-changing dynamic that people expect.

Now, if youth 5 IS eliminated, that takes something else into play. The gym this will directly affect the MOST is a gym who already has filled up a junior 5 team in every division offered. That would be only CEA, as far as I know. And although I don't know the exact crossover model, perhaps she could use LESS, considering she would have more L5 kids to move around.

I think what a lot of the rule changes proposed boil down to is that the SCORE SHEETS are the issue. If Elaine or ANYONE is proposing things because the score sheets are contradicting what we think is best for the industry, change the score sheets? Make the Youth 5 score sheet not weigh so heavily on doubles and therefore eliminate the pressure to get them. If the conversation with parents isn't 'Well, youth 5 doesn't allow doubles' but 'Well, youth 5 doesn't weigh as heavily on having doubles but the execution of proper tumbling, like well-executed fulls', to me the second one sounds a lot more acceptable. Maybe I'm just not looking at things the right way..

Your score sheet observation is interesting. You also make some great points about CEA and the fact that they have every J5 team at capacity already. Not allowing doubles for Y5 leaves them in a bad position. I don't believe for a second that WC wants to see Y5 gone. They do have the ability to add more Junior teams if they need to. Y5 restrictions do not impact them in the same way.

That being said I throw out this question. By restricting Y5 are you not in a way also impacting the whole crossover issue? Crossovers were referred to as a neccesary evil more than a few times at the NACCC meeting. There are proposals on crossovers this cycle but there will prob be nothing that comes of them. A restricted Y5 won't stop crossing over but it does create a more level playing field for gyms who do not use a crossover model. I may be really off base here but I have had that thought rattling around in my head.